Ep. 110 | Multiplying Disciples for Lasting Revival

What if revival begins with one surrendered relationship? In this episode of the History Makers Leadership Podcast, Daniel and Norival explore the difference between simply adding believers and multiplying disciples who make disciples. Through honest reflection on church growth, consumer Christianity, the Great Commission, and Disciple Making Movements, they challenge leaders to move beyond programs and into intentional, relational investment.

You will discover why multiplication requires more than activity, why discipleship begins with availability, and how God often uses the relationships already in front of us to create lasting kingdom impact. This conversation offers practical encouragement for pastors, ministry leaders, and everyday followers of Jesus who long to see revival take root in their own lives and communities. Tune in to gain insights on building a discipleship culture that continues from life to life.

Transcript

Why Revival Feels Distant

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Man, we hear about revival all around us, but sometimes in our own lives, we look around and we go, man, God, I'm not seeing it around me. Is there something wrong? On today's episode of the History Makers Leadership Podcast, we're going to look at addition, we're going to look at multiplication, and I'm not just talking math terms. I'm talking what is the kingdom mindset that God's called us to and what are some lessons that we can take away in our own life, in the ministries we lead, in the businesses we lead, and in the disciples we make, so that we can see that revival taking place in our own life and in the community around us.

The Global Church Growth Challenge

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Norval, I'm I'm thankful to be here again with you. Uh, it's been incredible. Uh, I've had just some recent travel, uh, and I think you know that. And uh, as I go around, it's been a really interesting thing to watch as Christian leaders, whether it's in Europe that we spent some time with there, or uh in Texas where I've spent some time recently, or even in parts of the Middle East, or uh in each of these contexts, I'm watching leaders who are really trying to answer this question uh, how do we accomplish this good work that God has called us to? He's called the church uh to go and make disciples of all nations, and they're all pursuing that. And we've got some similarities, we've got some differences, but in all these places we see people really energetically uh chasing that down and and trying to run after it. Uh, and at the same time, um, there can be moments where it feels like there's real success in some places and real challenge in others. Um, I'd love to have just a little bit of a conversation today around um just some ideas for church growth. What does that mean? What does that look like? Uh, what are some ways that, I mean, in your faithful leadership over the past 20, 30 years, how have you seen that navigated well? And what are some of the unique ways that, you know, uh we work with leaders and walk with leaders to navigate finding effective church growth strategies?

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Well, you know, um you and I have have uh recently um heard this conversation about church growth, and uh the in the last 70 years, um a science developed of church growth, particularly in America. So the church has grown. Yeah, and yet uh two-thirds of planet Earth still isn't following Jesus, right? And the majority, not because they have seen Jesus and said no. Uh, there's one-third of the population of of the planet who is called unreached. And they are basically, they don't know who Jesus was or is, they don't know anything about it. Um, in many cases, they have no access. Of course, they don't have access to the Bible, yeah, they don't have access to Christian literature, and in many cases, they don't know a single Christian. Um, so that's one part of the world. And then in in another part of the world, they know plenty of Christians, and so we may end up with the dilemma that a third of the world doesn't have Jesus because they've never heard about him, they've never met a Christian.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

And then there's there's another third that don't want anything to do with Jesus because they they met some Christians. Kind of a skeptic way to say it, but they are they are accessible. The gospel is accessible to all of these people. And yet they haven't been, they haven't accessed it. They haven't been able to access it.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Well, and I and I wonder sometimes if it's if it's something that we've

When Metrics Become The Mission

SPEAKER_01 3:48

done, right? I I've recently heard about something. It's called Goodhart's Law. Goodhart was a British economist in, I guess, the 1960s, 1970s. I don't know exactly when he lived, but this is this is what he stated. He said, when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure. When a measure becomes the target, it ceases to be a good measure. And I reflect on that, and over the past couple of weeks, it just hasn't left my mind because I think of how many moments does does that happen in my life as a Christian leader, and particularly uh within within our church structures, where we go, wait a second, what are the things that we begin to measure? Right? Now I'm not against measurement. Obviously, we got whole books of the Bible called numbers. God is for measurement, but when that becomes a target, how can that begin to skew uh some of the things that that that the body's doing?

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Well, one of the one of the critiques that I've heard of the of the of about the focus on unreached people groups has been that it has been a focus on reaching them alone, which is honestly it's an it's a it's an addictive, or not in the terms of

Addition Versus Multiplication In Discipleship

SPEAKER_00 4:55

addiction, in the terms of addition.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Ah, okay. It's an additive mentality as opposed to a multiplicative mentality. Okay, so I want to pause here for a second. We're talking about two mentalities, an an additive or an addition mentality and uh uh a multiplication or multiplicity uh mentality. Help help break these down for me, real quick. What's this addition mentality?

SPEAKER_00 5:17

Well, you know, you know, that when uh uh I don't I don't I don't even know who coined the term, but you know, we've heard from a million sources over the last 70 years, everyone win one.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Um, the idea again, the measure became the target. So the idea that if every Christian was able to share the gospel with one person, and that person would convert, would become a Christian, that'd be a great thing.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Yeah, and to be clear, it would be.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

That's it would be nobody's against that. It would be a great thing. It just would not, it would take us so long to fulfill the Great Commission.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Wait, great commission. Remind me, this is Matthew 28.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Matthew 28.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Okay, he says 1920. Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that I've commanded. Yes. Okay, so verbs, I got I got go, I got make, I got teach, I got baptize. Uh what's kind of central here?

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Well, the central is make disciples. It's the only imperative.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Imperative, help me. I'm I'm not good with English.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

The only, the only, you know, all the other verbs go, uh teach. They are they're baptized. They are not a mandate.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Okay, so they're not like they're not the mandate, they're not the instructive.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Jesus is not is not saying to disciples, hey, you go and teach. No, it's he's saying, you go and make disciples. Okay. You do that by baptizing and teaching.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Okay, so those are the actions that are the means by which you're doing this action, make disciples. So the command, make disciples, and you do that by teaching and and baptizing. So, Norval, uh this where does this connect in? You mentioned it, and I wanted to remind us, where does this connect in into addition? Where is it where?

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Well, you know what's interesting? Because as we were talking here, I hadn't thought about about I hadn't thought about that before. If you stop at go and make disciples.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

And even if you stop at baptize, you're you're additive, additive. You're a you're adding. I'm adding, okay. I'm adding baptized disciples.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

The moment I teach them to obey everything that Jesus has commanded, I run full circle because one of the things Jesus has commanded is for us to make disciples.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Okay, hold on here. So, yeah. So that that's where this turns. So it uh listen, like you know, I was a math teacher, okay? So my brain goes to what is addition, what is multiplication. Well, multiplication is a is a uh an extension, right? A mathematical extension that makes the addition process faster, it makes it more efficient, it makes it uh an easier way to go about that element of the mathematics process. So I'm I'm sitting here and I'm thinking and I'm listening and I'm trying to evaluate. But if if going and sharing the love of Christ with one person uh is is an element. I'll know I've made a disciple when that disciple is making a disciple.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

That is a very that that's a good measure of success.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

But I suspect, well, I don't not suspect, if I look at my church, the church that I go to, I'm not a pastor, you are, yeah, I'm not. Uh so we we we are looking at this from different perspectives. The other people in my church that are part of my congregation, yeah. Um if we get to the to make a disciple at all, we are stopping short of making a disciple that makes disciples. How do I know this? Because if we were, our church there there wouldn't be room for the people in our church.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Yeah. Yeah, the growth would be would be again exponential, right? It would grow at a rate that that couldn't be contained. Norval, I I you know, I want to be sincere here. I know these are things that we've explored before. It's not like these are completely novel ideas to us. And I I imagine for many of the people that are listening, yes, uh, it's not completely novel, but uh I I'm struggling because here's the here's the sensation that that hits my head. I hear reports and we've even shared and celebrated reports on this very podcast about revival taking place. And yet there are so many that I know look around themselves and go, I don't, man, I don't see revival around me. And that's where I think this addition and multiplication conversation really should begin to say, okay, what am I doing in my life? If I know that this multiplication thing, or if I'm if I've just discovered that this multiplication thing is is a unique and special element to this this command of Christ, maybe the greatest evidence of its presence or its absence is do I see that same kind of revival taking place around me?

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Is that fair?

SPEAKER_00 10:32

Uh yes, yeah, I think it is fair. Um But but a revival could stop short. Again, the the the part about making disciples who make disciples requires an intentionality. Okay. It requires it's it's a it's a more it's a disciplined process. And I think we I mean we could go into consumer Christianity, you know, over the last 50 years, we have we have learned we have grown up in an environment of consumer um Christianity where I am the end of the process.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Yeah. Or the disciple is the end of the process, not the beginning. In multiplication, the disciple is just the beginning of the process.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

I think I think there's some some truth there because I think the the again it's so much harder to to evaluate the question, is this a disciple? Right? Uh have I have I hit full on I'm following in the practice and way of Jesus. But you know, when we look at Jesus, he didn't say come and watch, right? Like he's like, here, follow me. Like that's the instruction that he gave is follow in my way, and my way includes making disciples who are making disciples. Like that's the that's the imperative there. So, all right. Let's say I look around and I go, Man, my church is full of of programs designed to meet a person in a moment, not equip them to meet a person, to equip them to meet a person. Well, what do I do here? I mean, I lie, we teach multiplication of leaders. I mean, we obviously believe that the most faithful Christian leaders today are multiplying into the lives of other people. Where do we need to start in kind of thinking and reflecting on this if we want to have that kind of an exponential multiplying mindset?

Relational Disciple Making Over Programs

SPEAKER_00 12:41

You know, you in in um one of the one of the most beautiful things that is happening in the body of Christ today is what a lot of people call disciple-making movements. Okay, yeah. And uh, and there's a lot of different methods to it, there's a lot of different things, but it's all based on a convert. On it, first of all, it's a relational process, it's not a program. I think we are so flooded and inundated with programs, particularly in the US, in the West, particularly in the English language. Uh I'm my native my first language is Portuguese. I also speak Spanish. And I know that even though there are plenty of resources in Portuguese, even though Spanish is a global language that really has nothing comes even close to the amount of programs and resources that are available for the American church, for the English-speaking church. Wow. And you know, it it's it I said programs, products. All of this sounds consumeristic. Yeah, all of these products, all of these programs. So I've seen a lot of this. People have equated uh disciple making with programs. Uh, and and that is one of the things, and and we teach, we talk about discipleship or disciple making being a relationship, you know, it's it's bringing somebody to Jesus and walking and following Jesus alongside that person until that person already has is already bringing somebody to follow along to follow Jesus. And uh and in this disciple-making movement process, one of the things that they do is the they ask several questions. So they read a passage of scripture and they say, Okay, what does that what do you have you learned about God? What have you learned about yourself? Yeah how can you respond? And then the last one, my favorite one, is there's who is who in your life really needs to hear this? That's right. Who in your life needs to have the same epiphany, let's use that word. Sure. Same epiphany that you've had with this scripture. Uh, it's a discovery process, and the it's the beauty of it is that that every time the this person that is in the process of being made into a disciple will have these epiphanies, we'll have these moments with God, we'll learn these things that will change their lives. And then the question, okay, who in your life needs to go through that same process?

SPEAKER_01 15:44

And I think that's I really think that's the the foundational element. I again I and I I go back and forth on this. I struggle with this sometimes, asking about the the efficacy of some of these programs. And and I mean, let's be honest, International Leadership Institute hosts a gathering. Like we we we have an experience that uh in an intensive that we walk people through.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

And we have a discipleship program, if you will, Christian to the core, is a is a beautiful um um material based on the same eight leadership core values scriptural from the from the scriptures that we teach. And and uh and people go through it as part of discipleship or disciple making. Yeah. But disciple, but disciple making is not Christian to the core. Sure. It's just a resource.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Well, yeah, the relationship is well, the relationship is is necessary. And and as I'm thinking about those programs and I'm thinking about those experiences, those processes, the the key element to me really does come back to that that final question in those DMM, those disciple making movements, which is who are you going to tell? Jesus from the very beginning started having his disciples teach others, right? He would send them out in pairs, he'd do these different things. He began very quickly, before they even probably were ready, right? In the sense that you and I might say, Oh, okay, well, you've now been through seminary.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Now you can read Well, in a way, they weren't ready until Pentecost, and yet they were sent three years earlier, right through the beginning of the ministry of Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

That's right. So, but teaching everyone who's following the Jesus way and to understand that, well, by following the Jesus way, it is a way that talks to other people about what God is doing in you and through you. And and uh I think I think one of the best ways we can can combat that consumer Christian context is by teaching uh really self-sacrifice and above all purpose. And when we recognize we have a purpose, and that purpose in Christ is to help people discover the abundant life that I've offered in Christ in a way that allows them to help others discover it as well. And it's funny to me because you know, in so many areas of our life, when we experience something that's life-transforming and joy-filled, what do we do? We tell everybody. Yeah, it's just that like it's the normal like consummation of our joy to celebrate with others.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

I'm thinking here, you're at this awesome place, you all of a sudden you run into Matthew McConaughey or Leonardo Capri. What do you do? You get a selfie because you want to share that moment with everybody else. Now, you have a personal encounter with Jesus. A risen savior. The risen Jesus, a risen savior. Get a selfie with him and go share.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

I mean, that's it. That's it. Okay, so I'm I'm a leader who's listening

Availability Count The Cost And Act

SPEAKER_01 18:35

to this. I'm hearing some of these ideas, and I'm going, okay, I want to step into multiplication, I want to step into some of these practices. Um, you know, I think the first place I would start is by is by really saying, hey, I need to understand how to find my place in the midst of this and find a way to teach others how to find their place. Um, I know for a long time we've taught the power of vision, which, which, which talks through a couple of key elements in that process. And I have found it being uh an incredible tool to not only help myself see God, where are you calling me, but also as a discipleship tool, so that they are receiving, oh, okay, I know where God's calling me, but I now also can help others discover where God's calling. Uh so can you just kind of quickly, hey, what does it look like to discover that? And is there some kind of a uh a biblical framework that we can work through that's going to help a leader not only discover for themselves, but have a real simple tool that they can pull on to introduce other people to God's call for their life and and begin moving people from um, you know, passive participant uh or passive observer into active uh contributor to the kingdom here.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

Yeah. Daniel, look, there is a you're you're um let me see how am I gonna phrase, how am I gonna state this? This pro this is not our project. So to anybody who's hearing so you got you you all of a sudden you hear you hear us talk about this and you want to you want to be a multiplier, you want to multiply. This is not your project, it's God's project.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

All right, so what would I do? And would I what I should be doing, what we all should be doing every day, is just quiet down, bow your head, and offer yourself to the Lord. Here I am, Lord. Send me someone, create the opportunity, because he's the one who's gonna create the opportunities, Daniel, anyway. Yeah, I can't manufacture that, I can't go out, you know. I could um, you know, if I'm if if I were an extremely extrovert person, I could go, you know, harassing people in the on the street and one by one. Hey, sure, sure, hey, hey, give you give them a a leaflet or something like that. That's not me, and probably not you either. We're not we're I'm I'm an introvert, I'm not gonna go out looking for people.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

So, but God will put people in my path. I believe if I if I put myself in the position to see these people, he would put me, he would bring those people into my path. If I am intentional about um walking with that person, paying the price, it's not easy. One of the things that we say at the end of our discipleship session is it's about life to life investment. Investment requires. Uh investment. You got to be invested in it. Think about it like this. My son is a chef. He wants to open a restaurant. Well, the first thing that he's going to have to do, we're going to have to do is come together and figure out a way to raise a certain amount of money to pay the price to open that restaurant. And then he's going to work like crazy to make that restaurant work and serve people. Discipleship is the same thing. Salvation is free, but the life of a disciple has a cost. But the path of discipleship is because it's it's an uphill battle. And so yeah, we need to count the cost. We're building a tower, we're going to war against an enemy. We need to count the cost. So I think the first thing count the cost. And if you think that's it's worth it, and it is, then wait, I I am very you can be almost passive in that, in that you wait, you're waiting for God to send somebody your way, but then act on it and just start a relationship. I don't think it I don't that's what we teach.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

And I believe it. It doesn't require a program, it doesn't require sophistication. Um it all it requires is is that submission and availability. Availability and that just that start walking with somebody.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Yeah. Man, I love that, Norval. Um such a very, I think, uh uh uh spirit-centered and and again natural relational response. Um listen, leader, if you're out there and you're listening, you're reflecting on this, I want to encourage you. Uh, it's not always the new relationships that you have to go out and seek. It's oftentimes the relationships God's already entrusted to you. It just is the courage necessary uh to begin having some of those conversations and being honest and open with people about what is God doing in your life. And uh that can always begin by daily surrendering to Him and saying, God, do something in my life today that I need to experience, see, and share with someone

Resources And Next Steps For Leaders

SPEAKER_01 24:46

else. We love walking with you as a Christian leader. And at the International Leadership Institute, this is what we do. We walk with Christian leaders, helping them to discover practices and values that are transformational for their life and the life of others. We want to see a healthy, thriving church. We want to see healthy, thriving Christian leaders. And so we invest eight core values into people's lives so that they have a tool that can be invested in someone else, so on and so forth. We want to see disciples making disciples. That's when we're gonna see uh God's glory among all nations, tribes, and people uh and and worship from each of them. Uh, it'll be such a beautiful thing. Uh, this is what we do. If you want to find some incredible resources, you can go to iliteam.org, learn a little bit more about us. You can go to iliteam.org slash vision and see some cool tools about the power of vision, some other things that can help you in the midst of that process. Uh, and if this is helpful to you, let me ask, man, like, subscribe, give us a comment, uh, some kind of interaction so that we can create the best tools for you. And if this has served you in some way, pass it along to somebody uh so that they too can be encouraged, uh, just as you were encouraged. Again, it's not just about what we receive, it's about what we give away to others. Thanks so much for joining us today.