Ep. 97 | Why Faith-Driven CEOs Burn Out Less and Lead Longer

What if the secret to sustainable leadership is not working harder, but leading from deeper faith?

In this episode, Daniel and Norival explore compelling insights from Barna research on faith driven CEOs and what sets them apart in today’s demanding leadership environment. The conversation uncovers why leaders who prioritize faith, excellence, growth, and healthy culture often experience less burnout and greater long term impact.

You will discover the core values that consistently show up in thriving organizations, how humility and faith tend to deepen as leaders mature, and why mentoring across generations strengthens both people and mission. They also discuss what CEOs feel most responsible for, including protecting culture, casting clear vision, and aligning teams around purpose rather than profit alone.

If you are a business owner, executive, ministry leader, or emerging influencer, this episode will challenge you to examine the foundation of your leadership and the legacy you are building.

Tune in to gain insights on leading with character, sustaining your calling, and building a culture that lasts.

Resources Mentioned
Barna research on faith driven CEOs; https://barna.gloo.us/reports/faith-forward-ceo 
International Leadership Institute Eight Core Values; https://iliteam.org/corevalues

Transcript

Setting The Research Context

SPEAKER_00 0:00

A recent study released by the Barna Research Group talks about how Faith Forward CEOs are experiencing less burnout and greater longevity in their purpose and calling within the marketplace. On today's episode of the History Makers Leadership Podcast, I'm really looking forward to breaking down some more of the findings from that incredible research. All right, so Norval, we're continuing to look at this report that that talks about leaders who have some unique satisfaction in their work, who who don't experience as much burnout. Uh in the last episode, we talked a little bit about um some of their self-leadership practices, but I also want to look at um some of their uh organizational leadership practices. There's some really interesting, kind of different elements to to how these Faith Forward leaders operate within organizational leadership.

Values That Drive Faith-Forward CEOs

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Yeah, that it's very interesting that what motivates their leadership, what uh their their values, the the top values um uh that they lead. And again, the the the big the the their faith forward CEOs value identify excellence as a top value um growth, okay growth of the company. Um their faith, thirty-four percent of the leaders considered uh their faith to be a significant core value or their religious practices as as a as a significant core value. And so as you can see, those are those are all um other focused leadership values. And but what is interesting, Daniel, is that uh there's an there's a there is a generation, generational difference in the CEOs.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

I mean that that makes a lot of sense. I mean, just just at first blush, that makes some sense to me. Uh because when I think about um, you know, I'll never forget there was a moment where I was listening, it was maybe it was Global Leadership Summit, it was somebody who was speaking who just made this simple statement. You're never leading one generation. You're always leading more than one generation. And as the gap between generations gets shorter and shorter, right? Like the the uh the number of years that the millennial generation are considered millennial is is you know a little smaller than Gen X, which was a little smaller, or which was a a little smaller than the the boomers, which was a little smaller than the you know, the the silent or the builder generation. Uh that that increasing pace at which generations form creates a context where as leaders, we're always leading multiple generations. From the moment I heard that from from whoever it was that spoke that, um I have always tried to register, okay, wait a second, what are the unique ways that I need to lead across generations? Um and and and how has that impacted? What did what were some of the kind of unique differences in this study?

SPEAKER_01 3:05

It's interesting because the differences some of the differences just indicate uh growth and maturity.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Oh, okay, yeah, sure.

Leading Across Generations

SPEAKER_01 3:14

For instance, um baby boomers uh value humility at 42%. 42% of leaders value humility as opposed to only 17% for Gen Gen Z and millennials. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Yeah, that that certainly there's some there's some truth there, right? When you're young, you're brash, you you haven't you don't know what you don't know, and you're you're just kind of running after things, and all of a sudden you go, oh, oh man. Um you start growing up. You start growing up. Or or you know, I think about how many Christian leaders I know that they they find themselves, uh, and you can maybe speak to this better than I could, Norval, but they find themselves in their 60s, their 70s, their 80s, they start looking around, they start realizing how many people didn't finish well, right? I mean, we talk about in our in our training, 70% of leaders won't finish well. Exactly. And that's an incredibly sober thought.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

And and and and look at this 48% of uh boomers and elders, which is what these they're calling the the the builder, the okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Okay, so they're calling elders.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

The the generation above me. I'm a baby boomer. Sure. Um, so 48% of them value their faith, their religious faith, in terms of a significant core value in their leadership, as opposed to 33% for Gen Z Gen X. Interesting. And only 25% for Gen Z.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

So it sounds like there's actually a key mentoring opportunity there where these boomers need to be, as part of their leadership legacy, stepping in and mentoring those Gen X, those millennials. Norval, if we don't help to disciple the next generation of Christian marketplace leaders, we're gonna be we're gonna be missing an incredibly important element to the the way I think God intended for the church to impact the culture and community.

Humility, Faith, And Finishing Well

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Absolutely. Uh, you know, I see myself in this in this report because I remember uh 20 years ago when we started ILI, I was the practical guy. Okay. If if you look at the materials of the uh the the ILI book, yeah, the part the parts that I wrote are the parts related to go setting, related to stewardship, related to um and and I wasn't as interested in I I always said I I'm not the prayer guy, I'm not the inner, I'm not so much, you know, I'm I I love God and I have intimacy with God. And then all of a sudden, I start discovering spiritual disciplines in the practices of of them and start giving more importance to that in the context of my leadership as I matured. Today I can say, man, I wish I had just like I started working out at 40, I wish I had started um investing more time prioritizing that core value of intimacy with God, of my faith in in the context of my leadership and my work, than uh than if I started earlier. I wonder where I would be. It's it's the same thing. If I had if I had just started going to the gym when I was 25 instead of when I was 40, I'd be in better shape. You know, I'd be closer to my ideal weight and things like that. So um it is something, it is a definitely a tremendous mentoring opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Well, I you know, we we talk about this a lot because of of uh just our belief that that to advance the gospel, the most important element is the local leader. Uh and we care about the local leader. We want to equip and mobilize and strengthen the local leader. And I think stepping into that kind of mentoring relationship, particularly for these marketplace leaders that are um that are in your generation, uh, there's just such a desperate need. And I know um leading a business is incredibly complex and difficult. And the thought of adding another thing to their plate could be completely overwhelming. Uh, but I love what one of our board members said. He said, I'm in my legacy years. He he runs, uh he is one of the largest employers in in our current community. Um, and and he has hundreds of employees, but he recognizes that that the legacy years are are about something beyond uh the now uh and and he wants to invest in um the the next generation in some fundamental and transformative ways, and it's just so so important. Uh thankfully.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

It's interesting because I know him too, yeah, and he's a Gen X.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

He's not he's not he's a little older. Older Gen X, but older Gen X, but he's Gen X. But here's another here's another data, important piece of the data that that speaks to the importance of mentoring, okay, Daniel. Personal growth mindset, okay. As a as a core value in leadership, Gen Z 30%. Okay, so about a third. There, yeah. Um Gen X 22, a little less than a quarter, boom uh boomers 22. So what we have here is a gen is two generations, millennials in Gen X, that that are for whom personal growth is an imp in in the business and in leadership is an important core value. Well, so they're they want to learn.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

There you go. They want to learn.

Mentoring The Next Generation

SPEAKER_01 9:03

They want to learn. We we have the opportunity to to not to teach, but to mentor. You know, older generations have the opportunity to teach. And um another another core value that was high among younger leaders, uh, gen, very high actually, was creativity.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Now that's so interesting to me. There's a there's a high element to creativity. They think that's fundamental to their leadership, to the organization uh that they're leading and to their organizational leadership.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

42% for millennials in Gen in Gen Z.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

That's that's nearly half. Normal. How on okay, where do you think that comes from? Is that is that youth and in and naivete, or is that is that indicative of something else? Where where do you think that comes from in the life of a leader?

SPEAKER_01 9:53

I think part of this is generational, part of this is actually contextual.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

We live in an we live in a day when creativity has really grown in terms of of an importance and a core value in the in the in the environment, the broader culture that we live. Yeah, you know, where it it the ability to innovate.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

Yeah. And the ability to be creative, I think, is is more uh accessible now than maybe at any other point in in human history.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

And the freedom to be creative. Yeah. Maybe uh, you know, we lived in a more we in a more in the box uh uh eras in the past. Um today is a more of a more out-of-the-box context, freedom to think out of the box.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

You know, when I when I think about creativity though, I I have to confess, I think some of and I I could be I can be just as uh susceptible to this. I think some of my peers, there could be a moment where it's creativity for the sake of creativity, right? Um, where it's not driven so much by um a desire to to have my leadership express or to to show uh uh real growth or transformation, but it's just I don't I don't understand or I don't like the way it was done. And so I just end up, you know, kind of doing something new just because I I want to do something new. Um and that I gosh, that that can be damaging to multi-generational leadership, right? Because that then change really seems to be just a a beating down of the past rather than a seeking to understand and then take practical steps forward.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Right. It's yeah, creativity and innovation, not as a rejection of the past, but as a continuation of it.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Uh standing on the on the shoulders of the shoulders of giants. That's right. You know, building forward. Iteration for the sake of perfection. I mean, we talk a lot about iteration because we're both we're both fans of uh of uh of space uh travel and and particularly uh some things that happened down in South Texas with regards to rockets and things like that. But that idea, uh, the creativity that allows us to iterate, iterate until until we get it right. Yeah. Um I think that's a that's a value of the of the new generation.

Personal Growth And Creativity Trends

SPEAKER_00 12:16

And uh well, what Chris what what what leaders find valuable also can kind of reveal some of what they feel responsible for. Uh and this this research had some interesting results on what leaders find uh or or or what these what these faith forward CEOs feel personal responsibility for. Well, what were one or two of the the kind of top things that they felt responsible for?

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Here's an interesting uh fact. 80% they feel uh high responsibility for the vision and the mission of the organization.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Well, I mean that that certainly makes sense, right? I mean, it yeah, it they're the CEO of the organization, uh they're they're leading, they're out in front. If they don't have um, if they don't have responsibility for the vision and mission of the organization, I uh you know, I it would be difficult to run.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Yeah, they're the ones, they're the the the the guardians or the gatekeepers for it for the vision and the mission of the organization.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

But the second, and real close, is they feel responsible for creating a positive workplace culture. And um, I love it that they are the the these Faith Forward CEOs are uh are worried about that, considered that and and work towards creating a positive culture.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Um I wonder how much of that is is uh what what the what some of that motivator is behind that, right? Like how much of that is really legacy of Patrick Lincioni and and his work around the advantage and and um you know dysfunctional teams and successful teams and in and organizational how how much of that is that uh and how much of that is again rooted in um love for others found because of love love of Christ. You know what I mean? I w I wonder where that that kind of tension plays in.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Well, I I think it because because in in in in some of the other some of the other questions, they reveal that other-centered type of leadership. Yeah, that's true. I think I think that's that other-centered leadership is what motivates the the this high focus. Element of culture. Element of high focus of of investing in the culture.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Well, and that makes sense. I remember in our first conversation in the previous episode, we we we talked through some of that those elements of self-leadership, and some of those motivators were clearly and distinctly others focused, wanting to make sure that that their teams uh are are valued and and uh and the like. So that that makes some sense.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Um were there other elements here of what they felt was productivity was the third. Um at 71%. But what is interesting is well, I guess vision and mission has to do with profit and and all of that. But again, if we go back to the purpose of the organizations, that the their perception that their organization exists for the benefit of others, for the service, you know, to serve community, yeah, to serve. And then here, vision and mission has less to do with money, more to do with being a positive influence uh in in in in whatever environment they are. And so the productivity, which I guess that's the first time that that the profits start playing a part, is only the third one.

Innovation Without Rejecting The Past

SPEAKER_00 15:50

Well, and and I've gotta be honest, I think, I think any any senior leader within an organization, for-profit, not for profit, um there there's always the reality that people people want, need, deserve meaningful work and meaningful pay for that meaningful work. Exactly. And and that doesn't happen just by magic, right? I mean, there's a degree to which all of those leaders are gonna feel that that that true weight of, well, you know, in two weeks there's payroll again, Norval. And if if the money's not in the bank, it's gotta come from somewhere. And I, you know, I I can put in as much as I can put in, but there's a point where I don't have any either. And now we're all just trying to float.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

So that's where prof that's where the biggest worry, the biggest stress point, yeah, is uh is that is the is profit, which is um it's in it's it's gonna it's gonna show up, you know, in one of in one other chart where the CEOs say the law the the highest ranking point of stress is profit. Because all of a sudden, um, as you said in a conversation, you know, off off the mic when we were uh we were preparing for this, all of a sudden the CEO is not response, only responsible for raising for supporting his family or her family. Right. But however many employees, well, yeah, you know, our friend, our friend from the from the community, yeah, he uh he needs to make it make his business work for over 500 people.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Oh yeah. Well, and and families in many cases. In many of those cases, Norval. And and you start recognizing, wait a second, if I've got 100 employees and the average family's, you know, four, well, that that that could be 400 people very, very quickly. If I've got 500 employees, well, 500 times four, you're you're starting to get some pretty massive numbers worth of impact. And and that's why I know so many incredible ministries um that focus in on those marketplace leaders saying, wait, this is a critical community that we can impact and touch and equipping them to be more effective at at uh reaching not only their employees but also the the community at large. As these leaders are navigating, leading in their organization, as these Faith Forward CEOs, this report also kind of started pointing to uh some other facts about uh stressors, about things that that cause them pain or pressure. Uh, what what were one or two of just those really high stress elements? We already know profit's one of them.

What CEOs Feel Responsible For

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Profit's one of them. Interestingly enough, we talked about soul care. I was talking about self-care, self-leadership. Uh, work life balance is number two. Uh with uh 32% of the leaders saying a big stressor, significant stressor, is uh is keeping uh life work-life balance. Um meeting um stakeholders' expectations. Oh that's kind of like that's that's a big one.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

It it's such a big one, Norval, because I think I think there's so many increasing expectations placed upon uh senior leaders, CEOs in uh particularly within businesses, right? It's it's you know, you got you got shareholders looking back saying, hey, I expect X X amount of return uh or I'm gonna you know uh pull out or or whatever. And and there's there's a right just just reason for that. You've got employees saying, Hey, uh I'm struggling. I I feel like I can't find balance in in things, and and it's your responsibility to make me find balance in this. And so there's those pressures there. Uh there's pressures on all those sides. Every stakehold, the customer always coming, going, hey, this isn't working the way it's supposed to, or you know, this is right or this is wrong, or you know, I love that you have this, but why don't you have this? Right. Um, I'll never forget there was a moment, you know, I managed restaurants and I was uh working at an Italian restaurant, and I had a uh a customer that asked, uh, I said, you know, they asked for recommendation. I said, well, what are you in the mood for? He said, I'll be honest, I'm in the mood for some Chinese food. I said, Well, we're we're an Italian restaurant, you're not gonna get any here. I mean, you know, and and I tried my best to find some way, but it those expectations from all of those stakeholders could create such an immense weight and pressure. Um, and of course, yeah, you you you also uh go home and and you know, can you turn off that switch? Can you can you make that shift back into the home life? Um, I'm honestly surprised that those numbers are as low as they are. I bet you that has something to do with the faith forward nature with which they're work leading and operating. I think there are, I think if you did that of a largely secular leadership context, the f the work-life balance for them, the shareholder or the stakeholder expectations would be far and above 30%. Yes. It would, it would my intuition just says that that would be even higher on that list.

Culture Over Narratives

SPEAKER_01 21:06

It's the influence of that faith and that which we talk about faith in in a superficial term. If you start going deeper, it's about trusting that God is the provider. Profitability is belongs, belongs that that variable is is is belongs to God. He's the one who's gonna provide. So to the degree that a CEO can trust God to take care of that, if she or he takes care of of the care, of the service, of the quality, and of the integrity and the character, um it's probably why it's it's not as high as as you know, one of the elements from this that I found really encouraging, right.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

But they're asked this question, hey, what are the most critical elements to uh um really building and sustaining a positive workplace culture? And at the bottom of that list was essentially narrative. At the bottom of the list was was, hey, it's not most of those leaders didn't believe uh that that a positive workplace culture is about saying all the right things in all the right ways, uh, but that it was actually a product of so many other pieces uh of the puzzle. Um, there can sometimes, I think, be a perception that uh when people feel like things are bad, well, they just haven't heard all the good news yet. If they just heard the right news or if they just listened to the right source, then everything be better. Um, the reality is no, people are gonna feel the way they're gonna feel. It has nothing to do with the story you're telling them. It has everything to do with the reality that they're experiencing. And so when we listen and uh interact with our the members of our team and lead in in that kind of a uh a Christ-loving, Christ-centered way, I think we'll begin to acknowledge and see, wait a second, it's got it's got less to do with the the story being told and communicated about our success or failure, and everything to do with the realities about our success or failure. Truth will prevail.

Profit Pressures And People Impact

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Well, here's a here's a proposal uh proposing a statement for you. You don't create healthy culture by trying to create a healthy culture. You create a healthy culture by being authentic and having your values and doing that. And in fact, you know, the the in terms of the tension that leaders feel, they feel more tension from performance indicators than from anything related to value alignment.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

They were relaxed, they were they were relaxed about value alignment, about culture and all of that. They were concerned, their deepest, deepest concerns are with the external things, the the the profit and the productivity and all of that. Whereas they were less worried about the culture. They were not trying to build a culture, they were not trying to increase that particular area or stressed about it.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Yeah, and because that comes naturally from being authentic and yeah, I I think that's a that's a probably a unique thing that exists for faith forward leaders. And of course, we're we're talking explicitly about Christian leaders. This this particular article kind of uh looked at primarily, it was 70 plus percent, 75% Christians. Um But I I I I've got to imagine it is that faith foundation that creates for them the framework for answering the question, how do I care for my people? What does it mean to care for people? Uh when that is informed and answered by the the Christian worldview uh and the answers of Christ, that creates a context where I can lead my culture because I know, I know from Christ's example what that can look like and how that looks and what that servant leadership function and model looks like. And so those won't be the stressors, it'll be it'll be those external stressors that that constantly apply uh a pressure to me.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

You know, it's interesting. It that takes me back uh probably almost 20 years to 2008, when somebody articulated the the the our training by by stay he stated that you know core values, the the deep core values that leaders lead out of, they're from the heart.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

Yeah.

Work-Life Balance And Stakeholders

SPEAKER_01 25:40

They're they're what you believe in your heart about God and about you and about your company. He said, Well, those values they influence the your mindset. And so your then your mindset, your thinking, your decisions, your strategies, which then control what your hands do. And he said, When you when when you have the right core values in your heart, you will you will think straight. You know, your mind will think in a way that aligns with those values, those biblical values, and that will inform what you do with your hands, how you make money, how you how you how you you you you manage your your employees and your departments and this and that. And so I think what this study is showing is that everything, everything that we see here on the surface level of of uh organizational leadership comes out of whatever you believe in your heart. If you believe in your heart that the priority is making a profit, turn in a profit, pleasing shareholders that will that will inform how you treat your employees, how how you how you strategize, and and what you do with your hands. It all begins in the heart and begins with those core values.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Well, Norval, I I I I really couldn't I couldn't agree more. I I think time and time again, both history and fact have shown us that forming the right habits, forming the right attitudes, having the ability to intuit, right, to practice intuition in our leadership is driven by uh values that rest at the heart of our life, uh at the heart of the the the reality and the practice of our faith. Uh and that's that's what allows us to be effective. You know, uh one of the earlier elements in this report, it's it's talking about the most critical pieces uh to a healthy organizational culture. And you know, the number one thing was leadership. It's leadership. And when it comes to leading an organization, we need effective leaders. When it comes to building effective leaders, I think we need the elements of Christ-like character. Uh and I think that's the fundamental piece that shapes cultures, shapes organizations that are impacting cultures, and ultimately results in the one individual uh making an impact on that other individual's life uh for for eternity. Um and and that's the kind of thing that excites me about uh about Christian leaders in the world today.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

That's something we've been saying. It's so simple that it that it's deep. Leadership matters.

Trusting God With Outcomes

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Leadership matters, Norval. It matters every day and in every way. And the the most effective way to advance the gospel and the kingdom of God in any context is that local leader. That's why leadership matters. Uh, and so I'm excited for uh for what God's doing in the midst of leaders around the world today. Listen, if you are part of that Christian leadership ethos, you find yourself a faith forward uh leader, I want to encourage you. There are incredible resources at iliteam.org. Uh there you can discover more about the eight core values that we teach that that drive the character of individuals that are reaching their nations for Christ. I think it'll be a great resource for you. Look, if this is helpful for you, will you like, will you subscribe, will you maybe share it with a friend? We want to grow in our ability to serve you as a Christian leader. So help us to know how we could best serve you. Uh comment, uh, do all of those kinds of things so that we can help connect you into uh and get you resources that will help you grow in your life and leadership, ultimately making a kingdom impact in your business, in your church, in your community and culture around the world. Thank you.