ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Explore the transformative journey that is leadership. In each episode, we will dive deep into strategies, stories, insights, and the core values that shape and inspire effective Christian leaders who make an impact - all around the globe. Get ready to unlock your leadership potential.
When leaders are equipped, kingdom impact multiplies. Equipping leaders and spreading the Gospel. Let’s change history together!
This podcast is brought to you by the International Leadership Institute.
ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Hope Rising: Global Church Insights
What if the global Church is more hopeful than the headlines suggest?
In this episode, Daniel sits down with Norival to unpack new findings from the Lausanne Movement’s global survey—input from roughly 1,100 Christian leaders across 120 countries, organized into seven key insights. Together, they explore a real tension leaders are feeling: many believe the Church’s outlook has declined compared to five years ago, yet there’s also a growing sense of hope for the future—especially among younger leaders.
You’ll hear why 95% of leaders agree the digital space is a true mission field, and why many are still wrestling with what faithful discipleship looks like online. The conversation also names the barriers slowing Great Commission momentum today—secularism, political polarization, declining trust in society, and the impact of ethical failures among Christian leaders. Finally, Daniel and Norival discuss what “trusted voices” look like around the world, and why that answer changes depending on culture and context.
Tune in for a grounded, encouraging look at how leaders can respond with clarity, credibility, and hope.
Join a community of leaders who are ready to change history and make an impact in this world. When you take part in ILI training, you will discover how ILI's Eight Core Values will help you transform your leadership. Discover more at ILITeam.org/connect.
Today we're going to take a look at some incredible research that's come out by a group called the Lausanne Movement. I think you're going to find some just really encouraging uh key initiatives going on in the global work of the body of Christ. Uh, it's gonna teach you some things about uh how God's moving and where he's working, but it's also gonna give you some key insight as to the current barriers and struggles facing the church and maybe places where you and people you know could be strategic in addressing those barriers and helping everyone who needs the hope of Jesus to discover that hope. Looking forward to today's conversation. Norval, as always, I love sitting down with you and looking at the state of the gospel, the state of the kingdom, uh, and thinking through as leaders uh the places that we can play a part in that bigger story. Um, and so uh, gosh, I guess it's probably almost a year ago. You were at the Lausanne Congress that took place over there in Seoul, uh South Korea. Uh, for the leaders who are listening who just haven't even heard about what Lausanne is or or any of those things, uh, what what would be your kind of 30-second encapsulation of who they are and and kind of their background before we jump into the document?
SPEAKER_01:Well, in 1973, Billy Graham and John Stott convened a group of, I think 3,000 some leaders in Lausanne, Switzerland for a World Congress on evangelization or a Congress on World Evangelization. Out of that Congress came, it became more than just an event, it became a movement uh where of leaders of different evangelical traditions in different parts of the world that's been going on since then. They've done several of these uh big conferences, they they they do a lot of uh research, uh papers, uh conversations. There's uh there's a whole track for young leaders. Um and so, and I was privileged to be at the last Congress, which was held, like you said, in uh Incheon Soul Seoul, Korea. Uh over 6,000 men and women from virtually every country in the world were there. And there were another five or six thousand that were online. So it was a massive event. Uh, it really felt like heaven. And so now they've published this uh this study. I just I actually I just received it today from the the organization of the Luzon movement, where they have uh researched, they surveyed approximately 1,100, 1,100 uh men and women from 120 countries of the world. Wow. So it is a it's it's a global uh research of us of a relatively small sample of the Christian population. Probably leaders, probably influential Christians, uh responded to this and they published the findings. There are um seven areas of key findings where they have published, and this paper just came out today. Uh, we'll put a link to the the website where you can download for free uh this and and read this whole thing uh on the show notes and in the video description below.
SPEAKER_00:Um I love it. So, Norval, let's let's jump in here. Uh, I'll just kind of start reading us through some of uh or reading us through the first one, and we can just kind of uh navigate what some of these findings really mean for Christian leaders in the world today. Uh so the first key finding was that even though leaders report that the church's outlook has declined compared to, say, five years ago, there is actually growing hope for the future across all regions and particularly among younger leaders, many expect the church to flourish and that Christianity's influence in society is going to rise with new opportunities to advance the Great Commission in the next five years. Some challenges remain, but the tone is not of despair, but of renewed hope and anticipation for the ongoing mission in the world. Norwell, I think, uh particularly as an American Christian, right, I see news articles that talk about, you know, 15,000 churches closing over the past uh 10 years or or uh or something to that effect. And and there can be a real sense of uh hopelessness or or despair, but to hear this this message that that no, you know, there's actually a a renewed hope or vision or passion for the future among so many believers. Um, man, that that's a that's a word of encouragement to me.
SPEAKER_01:It is definitely encouraging. Uh, we've had a conversation before about this quiet revival that they say it's going on in the West. Of course, Christianity continues to grow at rapid pace in what is called the global South. Latin America, which is where I come from, um, the church struggles. There are issues. There's a lot to critique in the work of the church in Latin America, but nobody can deny that people are coming to Jesus in droves. People are choosing Jesus in droves.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and even to our Western friends, I'd say, you know, there was a recent article published by the Wall Street Journal of all places talking about the increase in Bible sales as high as 22%. And um the people looking for uh uh ancient hope and ancient truth um lived out of faithful lives of of men and women. And so, you know, I um I was talking to uh a wonderful brother uh who just said, yeah, our Amazon rep called us asking, Hey, what have you guys done? What new marketing thing are you doing that's causing all of your books to sell so much? You know, Amazon sells all these books and all these things, and it's a Christian publisher. And he said, Listen, we haven't changed any of our marketing. There's just there's just a thing called the Holy Spirit. Let me introduce you to them. Uh and man, that that gave me such hope because I think uh I think the the the sales and purchase of Bibles is probably the best indication of revival that you could have.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. And it's it's so interesting. The perception of Christians around the world is that it's growing. That's data. We we get these these news from Barna and from Pew and all of this talking about a resurgence of an interest in religion, um, an increase in church attendance, um, particularly among uh Gen Z and all of that. And then we have stories like uh like one that that Martin Durham from from England uh told us about this. One of his one of his friends, one of his one of the people that uh of his workers, I think, from his organization, was riding the tube, the the Metro subway in uh London. And he was talking on the phone to somebody about a church matter in a subway cart full of people. And so when he hung up his phone, somebody he had never met, this guy was sitting there just eavesdropping on his conversation, came and said, Listen, I heard you were talking about church. Ever since some time ago, I've I've started reading the Bible and I have some questions. Where do I go? You know, uh, do you know that you know a church that I can go to? And uh so he talked, he told him about his church, invited him to a meeting, he came to a meeting, uh, started attending regularly and uh and made a commitment to Jesus.
SPEAKER_00:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:So, like you said, nothing can explain that except by the Holy Spirit. But the fact is there is a perception that the while the world has been hostile to Christianity, there is now a curiosity about the Christian faith in the newer generations.
SPEAKER_00:Man, I love it. And it's just it is so encouraging uh to see that mindset and that shift from the hopelessness that so many have felt into uh really the hope that I think we're called to see and sustain in Christ. And so um, man, I just I I sense and see that that hope, that encouragement, and that that positivity really echoing uh for sure.
SPEAKER_01:Well, we have a whole conversation on that. I think um we'll ask Justin to put it on the show notes and on the uh on the on the video description as well. Absolutely. If if somebody wants to uh hear more of you and I talking about this, um then the second finding that was very interesting, and that one's pretty it's it's kind of obvious, but it's interesting to see that there is a consensus around the world that the digital space is a mission field. Uh there is a near universal agreement among global leaders that digital spaces are now a vital part of the mission field. Actually, 95% of the of the responders identify the digital space as part of the church's mission right now. And it should be. But here's the thing 95% are can are convinced that the digital space is the mission field, but um a lot of them are still unsure how well the church is currently representing Jesus in the digital digital spaces, or if digital platforms are actually effective in making disciples, uh, which is a longer process, is a relational process, and all of that. The opportunity is there and it's clear, uh, but the path forward is how we present online in a way that is both real and relevant. It's still a challenge for the church, is at the growing edge of the global church.
SPEAKER_00:Man, Norval, I I love this because um, you know, I I I would say I'm a digital native, right? Uh I was blessed to grow up with technology in my home, computers in the home, access to the internet, uh, really from some of the earliest days. I mean, I remember having internet in the in the early 90s. Um, and so it's not really the earliest days, but you know, kind of for the general public, at least in in the states. Um And so in a lot of ways, I'd say, yeah, I'm I'm I'm a I'm a digital native. I deeply believe that, uh, and I think even somewhere else in this report, it talks about how uh the digital space is the is the is the marketplace, right? It's the Areopagus of our day. And so we don't wanna we don't want to be absent in that space. But I love that believers continue to ask this question, uh, framing and thinking deeply about that that phrase and that word discipleship, learning in the practices and the ways of Jesus. I might be able to instruct uh people or or teach people, uh, but but to live in relationship with another human being and trying to figure out what that looks like and how to do that through those digital tools and those digital means. I'm a big believer that relationships can be introduced and maintained through a digital connection, and there's so much value to that in the room uh experience together. Uh, and I do think that there's an in-the-room value to the gathering of the body. And so I think the church is trying to navigate some of those things. Uh, I I'm a huge, I'm a huge advocate from day one. The church has used technology to advance the kingdom. Pen and paper, we don't even think of it as technology today, but that was the most advanced way to communicate a message in the era of Christ. You could get out and stand in front of people and say something, or you could write it down and you could pass it around. And the earliest believers wrote things down. And that's been the history of the church. The printing press, uh, the advances with radio. Um, believers are constantly leveraging for kingdom purpose the new advances in technology. Nothing's different about that today. We're just trying to wrestle some of those things down and make sure that we're meeting people where they gather because that's where we want to make sure we're we're sharing the good news.
SPEAKER_01:That's a tremendous insight, Daniel. Um, writing letters, writing gospels and letters was the was the social media or the internet of the day, that's right, the new technology. And um, and it is. Um, the church has historically been able to leverage every new innovation um and sometimes be the agent of innovation as it was with the printing press. That's right, yeah. Uh, the agent of innovation. The church was the the agent of innovation that ended up um promoting uh the gospel and with with the translation of the Bible and all of that. Now, of course, there are tremendous barriers to fulfilling the Great Commission.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And uh the global the the research identified a set of major forces that are actively hindering the advance of the Great Commission. Uh, topping the list were the growing influence of secularism. It's interesting because we talk about a trend, people are actually disappointed and disillusioned with humanism and secularism at this point, where we are in the year 2025 of our Lord Jesus Christ. Uh, people are what we are seeing is people turning back to spirituality. And yet, secularism remains, at least in the perception of the church, and it may be a lagging indicator. It may be something looking back, um, the threat of secularism. But uh some of the other some of the other obstacles are way more uh on our on your face, like the political polarization.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I was gonna say particularly in the US, but no, it it's it's in a lot of places.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean it is global. Wasn't it wasn't it 2023 or 2024 where there were the most elections in human history that were taking place? Uh it was one of the more recent years there were more elections going on, because you know, democracy in the you know, in in in republics in the course of human history are a relatively new invention. Um, but but the most people in nations undergoing an election uh ever. And so that political divisiveness and polarization really wreaking havoc on uh on people.
SPEAKER_01:It is, and it and and it is everywhere. Globalization, I guess, globalized the division of the left and the right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, everything is now talked about in terms of the left and the right, and there's nobody's in the middle anymore. Yeah, everybody is on on both edges, and uh, and it's uh it's amazing to see how many I don't want to go into this subject because it's so it's so controversial, but so many places where pro-Palestinian manifestations and protests and things that happened all over the world and its counterpart, yeah, right? Uh indicating um without going into the question of of of of the issue itself, indicating that that divisiveness is is really global.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and you know, as they as we as the article kind of breaks down these barriers, I think that politics is is such a key one. But I was also really taken aback by um the the the the next two, which were uh the incredible decline in societal trust and the impact, the negative impact of um, well, quite frankly, the ethical and moral failures of Christian leaders. Yeah. Um those those barriers, man, I I they've just been so clear to me over the past 10 years uh of their lasting impact um and and how that continues to be uh a clear confrontation in trying to press the kingdom forward and press the gospel message to the ends of the earth.
SPEAKER_01:And and the truth of the matter is it's not going down. It's not decreasing. It just keeps happening over and over again. And every every time um a high profile leader, a Christian leader, uh has a moral failure or or some some form of ethical failure, it it just it just hits me um deeply. Uh and but it challenges me deeply. Uh if if people that I thought were so spiritual were actually falling prey to the same desires that have been there for thousands of years, you know, the same desires of you know, David doing nothing up on the roof of his palace, right and then you know, seeing a be a a beautiful woman across from across the the river or across the street, right and uh and feeding desires for that, or you know, or Saul not being faithful to God. Uh yeah, it just it just continues to uh do damage to the to the witness of the gospel.
SPEAKER_00:So we see, I mean, the first finding they shared, it's about this hope, it's about this transformation. We talk through um, you know, some of these other factors for uh advancing the kingdom, some of those barriers. Um, really, you know, and and we also talk about the the the digital space as being a critical one for advancing the kingdom. But I I'm I'm really curious uh what you think about this finding. It's talking about trusted voices, how creatives in the West and pastors in the south are some of those trusted voices. If a barrier to the gospel has been trust, these are some of the people that people are trusting. This is what they found, Norval. When asked who holds the most trust and impact in sharing the gospel today, responses varied by region. In North America and parts of Europe, respondents highly uh valued the rising influence of Christian creatives, artists, storytellers, digital communicators who connect with culture in compelling ways. In contrast, Africans and Asian leaders pointed to pastors as the most trusted and impactful voices in their context. These differences reflect how cultural dynamics shape a gospel witness, and they underscore the need for regionally rooted strategies that affirm both innovation and tradition. What are some of your kind of you know reactions to that? I I don't know if that's how it would have come back 20 years ago.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, definitely not. Uh because I'm trying to think where where did that um idea of creatives as being the most influential people for the sake of the gospel? I know that creatives and influencers are now that influencers become a word now.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right.
SPEAKER_01:Everybody's an influencer, you know, and everybody's trying to build a following on YouTube. We are.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and we hope that people that watch us will like us, will uh comment on our videos, I see what you're doing and will subscribe uh so that so that our videos can reach more people. That's right. But it it did surprise me a little, it did not surprise me that in the global south pastors still hold quite a bit of trust. Um and uh and that and that's a that's a good thing. That's the influence of the church. But the the the really the the The ri the rise of these creative influencers, storytellers, as I said, Christian movies, Christian TV shows, now on mainstream uh uh uh streaming services, like The Chosen. It's a phenomenon, it's a global phenomenon that that shows that it, you know, I'm I'm a fan that you can you can use good storytelling and quality cinematography and all of that to tell the story of Jesus, and it it will be compelling for a broader audience than just the the the Christians.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Uh the this the story of David is the same thing, the series that is on on streaming services about uh the King David and uh and his dynasty. So um yeah, it's it's a very interesting aspect of this that that apparently is is um has been noticed. But across the board there was one uh one one of the these trustworthy um, let's say proclaimers of the gospel, let's say this, that that are trusted, is actually the life of a Christian that is really living the Christian faith, that is really following Jesus. Um it it was across the board in in every different region of the world that um it wasn't more than these the pastors of influencers, but it was a significant part of the trust, trusted voices in Christianity around the world are people like you and I, if we are living our faith in the day-to-day relationships with people.
SPEAKER_00:So the most influential uh uh Christian witness is the trusted friend of an unbeliever. Right? So an unbeliever that has a trusted friend who loves the Lord, that's gonna be the most influential and who loves them. That's right.
SPEAKER_01:And who expresses that love sacrificially towards them so good and and and and which will bring up the question, you know, why do you do this to me? Right. Um it's we we love to read to hear the stories about the guy on the map on the tube in London who asked out of the blue to go to a church. But honestly, that's that's those are not the majority. The majority of people come to Christ through the influence of a of a close friend or relative. That's statistically proven. Well, and it continues to be so.
SPEAKER_00:Man, I love that. You know, this this next key finding from their research um was really uh, well, normal, I'll just say it plainly, it was really encouraging to me, despite despite some of its discouragement, because it's exactly what a space that God has called us to to work in and to serve in. And it was just identifying, you know, these leaders, uh, they recognize that they need to be able to respond to global challenges, but they don't necessarily feel equipped to do so. They want to lead in their country and context, but they don't necessarily feel like they're ready to do so. They they identify a couple of major issues, right? Trying to figure out artificial intelligence, that's that's a difficult one. Radical politics. That's for all of us, yeah. Declining societal trust, all significant threats to the gospel. But every uh most of the majority of the Christian leaders they um surveyed said, hey, we're not really sure if the body of Christ is ready to address these issues. Um, we need future-oriented leadership, theological engagement, and innovative strategies. That's kind of their their key finding there. Norwell, what what resonates with you? Where do you think um, you know, uh, where do you think ILI is in the history of of kind of addressing some of those issues?
SPEAKER_01:Well, uh, it just continues, we continue to hear it over and over and over again. The reason, the reason for all of the things that are not so positive is a leadership crisis.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And the reason for the things that are going well is, well, first of all, because of the sovereign action of the Spirit of God, but also uh good leadership. Yeah. So and and and to me, every time I read a report like this, or if I go to a to uh to a conference uh like we've participated at a conference called Missionexus in Orlando, Florida a couple months ago or last month, um is to see that where there is greatest need, it's a space where we're in, where we are contributing to the body of Christ. So it makes us feel like our work is relevant. ILI equips leaders with eight biblical core values, and by doing so, we can help them address these uh these shortcomings or these weaknesses of the church. Like it says, it re it requires um leadership. That's that's how uh we're going to be able to accomplish or or to let's say to fill the gap in those areas of even even in digital media, artificial intelligence, in areas like trust, uh, with with teaching on integrity, on leaders, building leaders of character.
SPEAKER_00:That's right.
SPEAKER_01:Um uh in in in areas like reaching the younger generation, you know, and all of that. And it's it's just it's just an uh such a privilege to be part of the solution.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And I think I think even from our our our very beginnings, there was a key emphasis on making sure that what we're delivering is biblical, relevant, and transferable, uh, and and being motivated by that continuing thing. And so uh helping to lay a firm foundation um that that helps those future-oriented leaders to uh see, address, and respond to just the varied crises and and and struggles that are going on today, and really to live in community with others who are already navigating uh a lot of those things. And so um, as we think through that particular finding from this report, I just praise God that uh uh again we're we're not able to address every issue and everything, but this is right right smack in the middle of the calling that God has placed on us as leaders within the International Leadership Institute to see, okay, God, we want to we want to wrestle this down. Uh Norval, walk us through this next um key finding uh and let's let's think on it a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:The next finding is which are the groups that are more or less reached? And their finding was that the wealthy remain unreached. Um across every global region, the the respondents consistently identified the wealthy as the, if you divide people by income groups, as the least effectively reached by the church. They did well with the with the poor, they did well with the people of middle of average middle income. Yeah, but there isn't uh there isn't an effort, there isn't a strategy, there isn't a um uh uh reaching of of of the wealthier um part of the population, which is a smaller group, but it's uh Christ died for them nonetheless, he did, right? Um and uh this kind of highlights a a blind spot in the mission strategies that will require uh some theological reflection, relational approaches, and some intentional engagement so that we can reach people of economical and cultural influence.
SPEAKER_00:Man, I think I think that's such a key. Man, that's such a key Norval. And here's really why I say this. You're right, Christ died for them, he loves them. Uh, yes, they have material wealth or possessions, but that does not mean that they do not still desperately and deeply need uh an abiding relationship with God, um, with the spirit, through the sun, like that is so I mean, it is the the the the greater treasure. Um, and I think that there are a lot of wealthy that are languishing in despair and hopelessness. Um, in fact, it's some of the wealthiest nations in the world that have seen uh just the incredible increase in suicidation in euthanasia and some of these other practices. And so I say that with a sincere heart of of love and compassion. Um, and if I'm if I'm frank, Norval, I think sometimes in the church I worry that we we're so worried about high quantity numbers. Um, and the reality is you're you're you're probably not gonna have a mission strategy that reaches a thousand wealthy people because you probably won't ever know a thousand wealthy people. There's just fewer wealthy people. Um, but that doesn't mean that they're still like it it's a reminder that there should be a clear strategy to reach the different peoples, irrespective of socioeconomic status. And uh reaching that one wealthy person might take five times as long because they have barriers to relationship, because they're worried or concerned or aware that their wealth impacts the way people perceive them and pursue them.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. You can't you can imagine that uh on both sides of the of the issue, the uh a pastor uh an evangelist of of any kind approaching a very wealthy will be perceived as coming for their money, yeah, and which the evangelist himself or herself might be self-aware. And and that that in and of itself will be a barrier because they don't want to be that you know money, money-seeking uh person, but will be perceived as such. It's it's such a challenge.
SPEAKER_00:And I think it's actually a really great opportunity for the wealthy believers that God has has blessed with wealth to steward their relationships well, to recognize wait, I have a calling to these other wealthy people because they're gonna, again, if it if I have the same amount of money as you or more money than you, you know I'm not coming to you for money.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So to the wealthy believers, um, just an incredible opportunity uh to step into that space and say, no, no, no, this is what that looks like. And to remember, um, you know, Norval, I don't think most people think of themselves as wealthy. Okay, but if we live in America, we're already in the top 10% globally, period. Uh, and so it may very well be that we have a unique way to reach people in our same wealth class, but who are actually in the top 1% in other countries of the world. And so it's just saying, wait a second, am I reaching the people around me? Uh and and how am I how am I going about that strategically?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's it's Paul's words of meaning all things to all people that I might save some.
SPEAKER_00:All right, Norval, here's another key finding that they shared in this report: global coherence uh amid local variation. I mean, that's a really fancy way of saying, hey, the body of Christ is one and it has many members. There's a remarkable consistency in the insights of leaders around the globe. Despite all of the different contexts, um, I think the authors really thought to themselves, hey, we expect to see uh lots of difference in the findings on these questions, but they actually saw a lot of consistency uh across generations and different uh, you know, market segments. Uh, from the digital frontier to the top barriers to missions, the survey revealed a widespread agreement on the key challenges and opportunities facing the global church. Um, and so we want to make sure uh as leaders that we recognize that that consistency, that that uh uh uh commonality is a is, I think, pointed to some of the key places that as a body of Christ we can we can engage, we can mobilize, uh, and we can seek to make uh a real difference. Uh what part of that kind of stands out to you?
SPEAKER_01:Well, it we are one body. Um, and and though we are different, there are contextual differences, there are, you know, uh obviously Africa will think very differently than than uh the the global north or the global or or Latin America. So it is um it is it is interesting that there is more consistent it apparently there is more consistency than there is disparity in the way um we perceive ourselves, uh our identity as the church, as Christians, as global Christians.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and you know that that reminds me, Norval, that I have so much to learn from my brothers and sisters around the world, that we're really not actually in that different of a place as we seek to pursue and follow Jesus, his teachings, and his call to make disciples, teaching them to obey all that he's commanded. There's unity in that, there's common calling and purpose in that. And so as I reflect on that key finding, it's just a reminder that I'm part of a global movement uh with a with a common spirit that's working out uh in the lives of of ordinary people, just like me, which is humbling.
SPEAKER_01:One of the one of the big findings of of this was they call it catalyzing for the great commission. So, which are the main catalysts? Okay. So if we're gonna do this, what is going to help us move the needle in it?
SPEAKER_00:And what were some of those top ones on that chart?
SPEAKER_01:The top finding overall was uh collaboration and partnerships. Of course. Guess what? Yeah. Um unsurprisingly, that's that seems to be a word and a practice that the church is really waking up to.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I think I think what I've observed, you know, not only in this report, but even in some research by uh some other groups, you know, solving the world's greatest problems and and other uh foundations, there's a real focus on that idea of collaboration saying, hey, look, we've we've kind of segmented and segregated off here a little bit around our denominational focuses. And it's not to minimize the importance of our doctrinal beliefs, um, but it is to say uh there is a framework around which we can co-labor. Let's emphasize and focus and identify those things and walk alongside each other. And to be clear, I think collaboration is hard because it requires both parties recognizing wait a minute, uh this is the greater, this is the greater peace. And so I've got to lay a little bit of myself aside, and you've got to lay a little bit of yourself aside so we can come together to get this thing done.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And uh in order to have that trust to do that, one of the things that I've learned, it's one of those obvious things that, but when you hear it, it like it's like, yeah, it makes sense. Um there's a lot of conversation about collaboration. So how do we actually do collaboration? And this present presenter that was talking to us about it said, you know, the first thing is relationship. Yeah, collaboration doesn't happen the first time you meet. It probably doesn't happen the second time you meet. It will require the building of a relationship to a level of trust where I trust you enough to release that little part of the work that I'm that makes me a little uncomfortable in your approach, and vice versa. Yeah. So that together we can do something that's neither the way I would do it, neither the way you would do it, but it's a much better way than uh that will accomplish more for the kingdom. But it requires that longer-term relationship until collab real, true, deep collaboration can happen. We can collaborate in the surface up here easily, but when it comes to really deep where where we are really meshing the two organizations or two churches or two denominations to for the common good, uh, it will require um a longer-term longer-term investment of relationships.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, well, Norval, look, I don't think we could possibly unpack all of these findings in one single conversation. Um, and and of course, I think we would point leaders back to this resource. They're gonna find some good things. But it as we kind of wrap here, I'd like to just say maybe together we could come out with a handful of just incredibly practical things that the Christian leader who's listening, what are they supposed to do with these findings? What are they supposed to kind of walk away with that they can they can take action with and do something with? And the first thing I want to say is, you know, the key finding on hope, uh, I think spread that message. I think there are so many Christians who are downtrodden in their faith, believing we're in a losing battle for some reason, uh, like they've missed the end of the book. Um, uh, you know, Christ is victorious, the church is victorious, and I think that message of hope that's hey, hey, uh across the nations, there is a message. The kingdom is advancing, the gospel is making progress, and the next five years will be better than the last five years. We see that hope coming. So for the Christian leaders listening, I would say to you, engage in sharing that hope with others. I think there are believers around you who would be so practically encouraged if you just told them, hey, things are looking in a good direction. Norval, what's a what's a practical thing that you kind of take away as you listen to this?
SPEAKER_01:I think that is that is that is definitely one. There is hope. Um, the next thing is um what so how can I looking at all of these things, how can I how can I build on it? What can I do? And um what we didn't say is this we talked a little about discipleship. Yeah, the second uh catalyst was discipleship. So how how can I, how can my church, how can my organization engage in disciple making? When I was at uh at the Luzon Congress, uh we we had a conversation in which somebody brought this the a different difference between discipleship, which sounds like a course, sounds like a process, yeah, an intellectual exercise. Disciple it sounds like an intellectual exercise, and disciple making, which is living, is doing life next to each to somebody. It's communal. And so how can I, how can I as an individual, how can my church, how can my organization, uh, my denomination engage in making followers of Jesus? Helping people, um, as John Mark Homer says, be apprentice to Jesus, become apprentices to Jesus in life. Um if that's the goal of my life, then why not bring people along with me along the for for the ride so that they can experience the same the same journey of apprenticeship to Jesus? So the biggest takeaway is what considering the digital spaces, considering the challenges, considering the the the the the positive outcome, ex the positive expectation. Yeah. For the future. Where am I going to join this? There's a wave. Um let's let's jump on it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. If you're if you're out in the ocean and you're riding the waves, you don't have to necessarily um uh worry. The w what the wave might sweep you up, but you want to pick whether it hits you on the crash or or you're you're catching it as it's as it's coming in. And um I think for for believers who are listening and watching this, uh it's sharing that message of hope. It's it's recognizing where am I called to make disciples and to be a part of that disciple-making initiative, uh, recognizing that that that's gonna, you know, we we talk even through some of the key findings that that focus on uh where is trust in our societies today, right? It's in the relationships we have with other individuals. So um, you know, those individuals share that hope, engage in that disciple-making process. Uh, and then I would just say, uh, you know, as we kind of finish out here, uh, I think walking away from this document, uh, I'm just walking away with a real sense that um that God is speaking through uh the body to bring a message to one another. Um and so my practical action for the Christian leader listening today is listen, engage in conversations with other believers and listen to what God is showing and demonstrating to them. Because in the listening action, we begin to hear a constant and consistent message from the Lord. And that constant, consistent message is something that that brings transformation uh through the body, for the body, uh, and for his glory. Uh, and I think that's that's some of what we'll see as as believers work across, you know, whether it's the faith and work movement that's gained so much momentum here over the past, you know, 20, 30 years, or um, gosh, just people engaging in those digital spaces, right? We see there's a need, which means we've got to be willing to try and to innovate, uh, which means we've got to be willing to accept that some of those innovations will fail, right? Not everything works on the first try. And so to the Christian leaders listening, find that place, engage in that movement, and listen to what God's saying to others, because in the midst of that, you'll hear some of the things that He's saying to you. Uh, so those will be some of my practical takeaways, some of your practical takeaways.
SPEAKER_01:Great takeaways, yes.
SPEAKER_00:I think I think God's saying something for us today. Uh, listen, leaders, as you um listen to this, uh, one of the best gifts you can give us uh is to give us some feedback. Let us know how this is serving you, impacting you, um, and the things that stand out to you and the things uh that we could improve. Uh, we want this to serve you well because we know that we exist to serve Christian leaders uh around the world. That's our wonderful gift, our wonderful calling. Uh, we believe that when leaders are equipped, the gospel accelerates, the kingdom expands, uh, then God is glorified, and then the needs of hurting people and helpless people are met. Uh, thanks so much for being a part of this today. If you want to learn more about us, go to iliteam.org. We'd love to meet you there and connect with you further.