ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Explore the transformative journey that is leadership. In each episode, we will dive deep into strategies, stories, insights, and the core values that shape and inspire effective Christian leaders who make an impact - all around the globe. Get ready to unlock your leadership potential.
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ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Ep. 83. | Five Transformational Habits of Truly Influential Christian Leaders
What makes a leader so influential that their impact lingers long after they leave the room? In this inspiring episode, Daniel and Norival draw from more than 40 years of combined leadership across churches, nonprofits, and the marketplace to unpack the habits that define truly influential Christian leaders.
From daily spiritual rhythms to the power of consistency, they share practical disciplines that shape character, deepen trust, and strengthen long-term impact. Daniel and Norival also explore often-overlooked habits, such as authorship, accountability, and an outward focus, that help leaders build a legacy, stay grounded, and extend their influence beyond their immediate circles. Their conversation is honest, practical, and full of wisdom you can immediately apply to your life and leadership.
Whether you’re serving in ministry, leading a team, or guiding your family, this episode will encourage you to cultivate habits that reflect Christ and multiply your influence over time.
Join a community of leaders who are ready to change history and make an impact in this world. When you take part in ILI training, you will discover how ILI's Eight Core Values will help you transform your leadership. Discover more at ILITeam.org/connect.
So, what makes leaders incredibly influential? Uh, even to the point where when they leave the room, their influence lingers, creating lasting change and impact. Listen, Norval and I today, uh, with more than 40 years of combined leadership experience across churches and nonprofits and marketplace uh places, we want to walk alongside you, give you some practical lessons so that when you walk away today, you're gonna have some habits that can help you uh transform not only your life and leadership, but the organizations that God has called you to lead. Uh, we both came with a list of five incredible habits. We haven't heard from each other yet what those are, so we'll unpack those today as we do that. So, Norval, I'm excited for us to look at some of these things. I know you've led uh in different countries, uh, in a global context. Um, as you reflect on this list, uh, what do you think is gonna be the same? What do you think is gonna be different?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'm I'm curious about it too. And and I guess the first disclaimer is that this is not based on re on research. Sure. This is uh this is a personal, of course, we both did some a little bit of research and uh and and some of our things will uh will match what's out there. But um this is really um different kinds of experience. Um I've had long-term experience, but I haven't I've never ran a restaurant, which you have. Yeah. Um I've never I've never led a large number of staff. Um so that's those are some differences. I think some will match. Yeah. Uh some won't.
SPEAKER_02:Now, yeah, I'm I'm just curious. Well, uh Norval, I'm really excited because I I think we're both coming with a sincere heart to see Christ magnified in our life and in our leadership. Uh so let's just go ahead and jump in. I'll give you the honors. Tell us what's the first habit that you think of when you think of influential leadership?
SPEAKER_00:No brainer. Uh I call it a daily spiritual rhythm or a rule of life. And uh so successful leaders, and I'm and and I'm thinking, Christian leaders, but you know, I've read some things about about even in the non-Christian leadership circles talking about sometime where you stop and and they meditate and they do whatever it is that the practice in the other religions for us is connecting with Jesus. That's right. But I believe for a leader, and and I and this is a lesson I've learned a little later in in leadership, is that you have to move beyond the quiet time in the morning into a rule of life that is really that really practices the presence, as we would say from uh brother Lawrence, um many times a day. You know, uh some folks are talking about uh a three time, I'm trying to practice a three times a day um spiritual discipline where I I have my morning, but also pause at midday, and before I go to bed, last thing I do is connect with Jesus again.
SPEAKER_02:Man, that that resonates so deeply with me because uh again, uh in my own life, I've just seen the incredible impact that that kind of uh daily rhythm with the Lord has and and can have. Um and again, just the the the practice of that uh I like I like that phrase rule of life. I know I know there's a lot of history behind that and a lot of um kind of uh uh weight that that carries because of that history. Um, but I I find it so incredibly uh so incredibly true, right? It's it's the daily practices of of of prayer and study and and fellowship and um relationship. So I all of that to say deep amen. It's actually not on my list, but uh I think I think that's such an incredibly true thing for for Christian leaders, uh irrespective of where they are in life and leadership.
SPEAKER_00:Um and it is a rediscovery of a th of of a of a millennial millennial uh tradition. Yeah, because it's something that was that started in the mid in the middle ages, yeah, you know, with with Lectio Divina and uh and uh and then um Lexio Divina is a slow reading of scripture. Yeah and then there's another practice by uh Ignatius Loyola called the examine, where you finish your day by um kind of rewinding, playing back your day and and looking at where God was manifested in your life, but also looking at uh any sins that you might need to uh ask forgiveness for.
SPEAKER_01:Amen.
SPEAKER_00:And and and it hasn't it has been so great for me to finish my day looking at that and going to bed thinking, hey, listen, I close my eyes to sleep now, uh knowing that I have I've celebrated what God's done in my life today, and I've also cleared the air in my relationship with God in terms in terms of uh of the places where I missed the mark.
SPEAKER_02:Amen. And there's such a freedom. There's such a freedom when we do that. Uh I I I'll confess, Norval, I think that's a brilliant one. It does really dovetail into the first one that that I'd like to share, if I, if I may. Um I think the the the first habit that came to my mind as I reflected what are the five habits of the most uh influential Christian leaders? Uh it's honestly consistency. Uh I think uh in our day and age, there's there's going to be this draw to the next thing that can accomplish the task. But even when with what you were just describing, it's thousand-year-old practices, right? And I think the most effective Christian leaders are those who are consistent in applying and living out habits uh that that acknowledge um uh the the consistency in the same direction has a longer impact and a longer legacy than you know kind of hopping from idea to idea, topic to topic. Uh and I really put, you know, even in my note, uh a reflection on uh consistency in is another way of saying discipline, like a life of personal discipline that that maintains those habits. Um and and I think whether that's in in in message, in faith, in um their their actions, right? Whether they're in a marketplace segment or uh even in a church, um, consistency in those actions is going to make them incredibly influential because people will see that what they're doing isn't a passing fad or isn't a thing that they happen to be doing now, but it's actually something that they've committed their life to. And once they see that, they recognize um there's a deeper and more sincere uh or maybe a more authentic belief in that transformational impact.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And here's a thought uh uh consistency in in in this and in and in any other area will generate a level of trust in people that uh if if if they're consistent uh in this and in this, well then I can trust them with something else. That's right. You know, Jesus said, you know, the those who are faithful in the in the few in the little will be faithful in the much. Um and so God will entrust us greater things. I think people will do that too. Yeah. If we're consistent in some of the smaller things, um, it's it's leadership by example.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and I love that you brought it up as trust. I actually didn't make that connection in my own mind, but I think that's exactly the route, right? I I think we're living in a day and age that has the lowest institutional trust in history. Business trust is down, nonprofit trust is down, government trust is down, church trust is down across every segment of society. If you're an institution, trust is so incredibly down. In fact, I sat with a marketing guy the other day and he said, Daniel, none of your marketing as a business, as a as a nonprofit is going to work unless you are the face, unless someone is the face of that, because people don't trust organizations anymore. They trust people. Um those people need need to be consistent. That's right. And that's that's at the foundation, I think, of it is they only trust the people when they see them as uh uh uh unequivocally or or without reservation, consistent in what they're doing. Yeah, that is that is really good, Daniel. Well, I love it. It's it's it's what I'm seeing. So what's what's your second one, Danny?
SPEAKER_00:My number two one, oh my number two one is easy, but so many people disregard it. It it's interesting that I put it personally by uh um I went on and looked online and it was um it was there. Same number I put seven to eight hours of sleep every night. Oh man. Yep. Uh I I I I put it and it's interesting. There's there's another one that I wrote about health, but but I think this one is separate. Um there is this there is this danger. We all we're all in danger of of of living in this hyper uh stimulated life. Um I've read some time some time ago that uh the world is now illuminated by LED lights. Um 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago, you know, you saw if if if if a uh the the the International Space Station was circling the earth uh in and taking uh film of the world, it wouldn't be nowhere near where we are now where it the planet is lit. You know, um streets are lit, houses are lit, buildings are lit. And I've read once that this is this is doing something, uh changing our circadian rhythm. It's doing something to the human brain that we are overexposed to light, and and it's harder to sleep, it's harder to relax because we need that darkness. It's like if you go to the if you go to to the extreme north latitudes, um, I've had that experience. I was in Moscow and I didn't have proper curtains, and the sun set around 11 o'clock and came up at four. My wife and I couldn't sleep. And so in a world that is illuminated, we need to learn to turn down the lights, turn off the lights. And and I I believe that will be a measurable advantage. A leader that can take a good seven to eight hours of sleep a night, which is a number that is healthy. Uh more than that, it's a little lazy. Less than that, um you can live on it, but I I I believe it'll it'll affect your uh performance, it'll it'll affect your capacity the next day.
SPEAKER_02:Man, that is that is such a good word, Norval. I I mean, even even earlier today I was reflecting on like when I was working on my masters, and man, you wake up at four o'clock in the morning, get some work done, you you, you know, the family goes to bed and and and I'm sitting on the floor next to my wife until midnight doing more homework, right? Or uh gosh, when I was in my undergrad and I was getting on average, you know, four hours of sleep a night. Um, was I able to accomplish some tasks? Yes, but that isn't leadership, and that's certainly not influential leadership. Um, the the kind of relationships and mental work that I think the most influential leaders are called to engage in needs rest and needs um that kind of ability to focus, which only comes from minds which have have been in that space. And I would even argue, you know, uh, in addition to the seven or eight hours of sleep, I'd argue get get at least a half hour of boredom in your day so your mind can can actually reflect on what it's taking in. I I find myself, um, you know, there's the famous John Mark Homer book, Addicted to Busy. I can find myself listening to so many things, engaging in so many different books or sermons or or or resources that I don't really reflect on them sufficient in the moment. And so I gotta I gotta have that mental space where there's enough quiet for me to even be able to engage in that. But uh none of that'll happen if I haven't gotten the the rest that my my body physiologically needs. And there was a time in my life, believe it or not, where I thought, okay, so if I need eight hours of sleep a night, uh over over 10 nights, as long as I'm getting 80 hours, it's fine. And so I do four four hours for for half of them, and then you know, try and load it up on the the second half of the week, and that just doesn't work. Um, it's actually the consistency of that sleep that I think is uh so necessary. So, man, that's a good one. I really love that practice. I know, I know. So what's your third? Uh what's your next one? Yeah, so my second one's actually um, you know, when I started on this, I was really thinking about the church leader, but I think this is true for for all leaders. Uh, if you want to be an influential leader, you've got to have an external focus. And I don't mean that that that means you you lose sight of the people that you're directly uh leading or serving, but you've got to constantly keep an orientation that remembers the outsider. Um, you know, I'll I'll just look at the church leader here for a moment. If all you're doing is within the four walls of the church, you don't actually engage in your community in any meaningful way, then you don't really see what's going on. Uh you don't have a good feel for uh the hurts and the heartaches of of the the the larger body, or not the larger body, the larger community um around you, particularly the unbelieving community. And if we're gonna, you know, like Jesus, uh, be able to look and see the people that are um, you know, hurting and helpless like sheep without a shepherd, we have to see them. We gotta be around them. We gotta be in their midst. And and I think in some circles, it can be easy for the Christian to kind of cloister off or segregate or separate off into the purely Christian bubble and lose sight of that external focus. But even for the marketplace leader, I'd say, hey, if you want to continue to honor God in your marketplace, yes, care for and lead your people well. Do not lose sight of those who have never encountered your business because those are people that you can uh still carry an impact on, learn about others in your market segment, others that are in other uh sectors of society, so that you can continue to engage in in the larger, broader narrative that God is working out in in the community and society around you.
SPEAKER_00:Outwardly focused. I like that. It's uh and I was thinking as you were describing it as applied to uh church leaders, I was I was thinking exactly uh about the marketplace leaders where the focus, the the the successful entrepreneur focuses not so much on on his people, but on the client, on on on if if the purpose of the bill the business is to serve, then um it's it's uh it's a quest to find people out there that I can serve better.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think I think that's a again a special habit and a special practice of the leaders that are are of particular influence. They have a time in their schedule, in their practice to say, I'm going to engage outside of my my regular circles.
SPEAKER_00:That's great. What you got? My number three might not please everybody. Because uh because here's here's here's the thing. The uh I called it deep work in the morning, grunt work in the afternoon. Do your meaningful thought work early. Leave the automated, like the the mechanical, the you know, the stuff that requires less uh reflection and thinking for later on. Um some talk about doing doing burst, you know, you do 90 minutes and then do you what you said, you know, your your boredom time, your time when you're doing nothing and replenishing and then and then uh loading up again. The reason I say it's controversial a little bit is because uh people talk about morning persons and night owls. Well, I'm a morning person, I'm up at 5 15 in the morning, and and I I don't like to go to go to bed after 10 o'clock during weekdays. So then the night owls will say, well, and first of all, I've heard some people say there, you know, real productive time is early time, so if you it's almost like you have to adjust to that rhythm. Um, I'm not dogmatic on it, but the fact is um it's not written in your DNA that you are uh that you are a morning person or a night owl, although there are genes related to it. But it it can be trained. Yeah it you can be trained to to have that discipline of focusing on what you need, you know, writing, thinking strategically, making plans, and that kind of stuff in the morning. And then leave the afternoon for things you don't have to to think much about, like recording a podcast.
SPEAKER_02:You know, uh it it's funny you you bring that one up um because uh, you know, I think in different seasons I might have I might have argued that more, right? When I when I was when I was working in in restaurants and in the market, I mean we we were only open for for lunch and dinner. And so yeah, I mean I was getting home at one or two in the morning because that was the end of my day. Um not because I necessarily was a night owl at the time, but I was I was functioning on like a shifted time scale. Um and I think I think the the sentiment of what you're saying is know when you should be doing the the brain work and know when you should be doing the body work, right? Like there's just some things that you just you can you could you just kind of have to do um and you gotta kind of grunt through uh that don't require the the deep reflective or reflexive thinking uh and rumination and and and kind of that that practice. And and as a leader, um, yeah, I think I think you need to know uh when in your day you're gonna need to do those things. Uh and I think, you know, likewise it's it's hey, the most important or the most difficult conversations I'm gonna do at the start of my day because it's the freshest, right? In fact, I I I think I'm uh may have shared either on on LinkedIn or even in person with you, my wife and I found even for our marriage that the most of the most of the quality time we were getting together was after the kids went to bed. And so we were getting in bed and spending time together and talking and catching up and all those kinds of things. But it was the end of our day. It was the last that we had. We were giving each other the the leftovers of our energy and our focus and our attention and and all those things. And so naturally we were a bit more prone to, you know, some some uh uh less than positive interactions in the midst of that, right? And I love my wife and and and things are good, but uh we discovered that if we just have coffee at the start of the day together, we just give each other the first 30 minutes of our day. Hey, we're gonna sit, we're gonna have coffee, we're gonna say a little prayer together. That that simple practice, recognizing, wait a second, this relationship, the the clearest relationship of the gospel from the scriptures, uh, or you know, one of the three primary relationships that that reflect the gospel, my marriage, a marriage, it deserves a prime position in the course of my day. It's gonna get the first one, and we're gonna sit here together.
SPEAKER_00:That's a great practical recommendation, right there.
SPEAKER_02:So, yeah, you talk about where is it, where is it needed. My for me, my marriage isn't isn't a grunt thing. It's a it's a like it's a relationship that requires my focus, my attention, my heart, my um affection. And that's gonna be best if I can give it to in the in the first parts of my day.
SPEAKER_00:That's a great one.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I like it. All right, so uh I love how we're just so different. We're coming at these from different ways. Norval, you're gonna laugh when I say this. My next habit, believe it or not, I wrote authorship. I think the most effective and or excuse me, I think the most influential Christian leaders are authors. Uh and my argument would be um, real simple. I'm gonna give you some names. Paul, Peter, John. I'm gonna go old school, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Moses. The most influential leaders that God has placed among his people were leaders that actually didn't experience the influence during their lifetime purely, but experienced influence for generations to come because they wrote things down. I have so undervalued that in the course of my own life. Uh, and it's something that God's been stirring and and and wrestling on me just personally on, because there's so many unbelievably valuable things that we have inherited from years past. And we were talking about John Bunyan as a staff just the other day because he wrote Pilgrim's Progress, a book that God used to influence generations of believers in their faith in their walk. To this day. To this day. I mean, you know, we we talk about C.S. Lewis because he wrote so many things. And so I think that if we're going to be if uh influential Christian leaders, we want to have a good practice of authorship, writing down the things that God is showing us and teaching us so that it can be shared with others. You know, uh the power of testimony is unequivocal in the kingdom. And and I think I have historically forgotten the importance that that that testimony doesn't just have to be verbal, right? It just doesn't just have to be video. Uh the the recording of that for uh a longer period is just so valuable. And here's the last thing I'll say on that. Uh uh, you know, if the Old Testament can be summarized as remember, right? Remember, remember. Um, somebody once said the phrase, uh, rather than a good memory, have a short pencil. Uh, meaning you've used the pencil to record all of the things so you don't have to have a long memory, just have a short pencil. Uh, and for me, that has been something God's really wrestling with me uh as far as that's a great one.
SPEAKER_00:That not not I don't I don't think we think about it that much. We think writing is for the is for the greats. It's you know, uh am I gonna write the next mere Christianity? I don't think so. But maybe not. Or, you know, the next Pilgrim's progress. I don't know. But leaving uh behind, um it reminds me of I have an uncle who was a was a pastor, was a great leader, and he he wrote a book that nobody uh I don't nobody's really gonna read except the people that he wrote it for. He wrote it for his grandkids.
SPEAKER_02:There you go.
SPEAKER_00:So he wrote, you know, the story of his life and some things and just wrote it for his grandkids.
SPEAKER_02:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:Uh uh Dr. Alvon Steag, one of the one of ILI's founders, did the same thing. If for nothing else you don't have them, but I have grandkids, you know, write them for your children, for your grandchildren, for their children.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and think about the incredible gift that that would be if you had received that. You know, uh, I think I think that's uh again, you want to talk about great influence. Um that's that's a real meaningful place to put it.
SPEAKER_00:That's a good one.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, man.
SPEAKER_00:Uh the number four from my in my list, I could um I borrowed this from one of the one of the sites that I saw. It it's called intentional relational touch points. So successful leaders, I believe, successful leaders are let's say this leaders who fail often are lonely and and lead alone.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, it's lonely at the top, says the says the leader who's not leading. Says the leader who's not leading, or the leader who is who is about to fall from the top. And so we've had we've had more a lot of moral failures, leadership failures, all kinds of stuff, and and it's always about being alone. And so to be successful as a leader, I believe we need a couple people, a few people in our lives that that can well, let's say, keep us in line, as you know, facetiously, but actually uh keep uh keep keep us on the high road, keep us on the narrow path. So things like that. For instance, uh, we talk about every visionary needs an integrator. Everybody who is a dreamer, who has always seen the past, needs somebody to tell him the implications of those visions. And so everybody, every visionary leader needs somebody who can. Um I I always joke about it that my my wife is that person for me. I'm a visionary, she is clearly an integrator. So when I have these magnificent ideas, she can see immediately what implications, and she can tell me five way, five reasons why that won't work. And that gives me now a counterpoint to my my you know semi-delirious dreaming. And so every every visionary leader needs that person who will hold them to the reality. And because we're sinners, we all need to be accountable to somebody. And so those those relational touch points where you are surrounded by people as a leader who can call you out on sins, who can call you out on mission drift, uh, and and other and and things like that, who can call you down from your high and lofty visions and dreams. That is fundamental.
SPEAKER_02:I think it's so funny because my number four, unequivocal accountability. There you go. I mean, I I I couldn't agree more with what you're saying, Norval. I I think the most influential leaders have an almost unnatural level of openness with a select few people that can can can well, in some senses, call them out, but in other senses, remind them of truth, right? Um there are look, leaders can sometimes even be depressed over circumstances around them, and they need that same person to come and say, hey, wait a second, listen, buddy, you've actually accomplished a lot. Let me point it out to you. Let me remind you, let me pull you back up from that depressive state because of, you know, whatever the circumstance may be. But I I think, again, an influential leader needs to have somebody who is who is looking through their finances to see how you're spending your money, how are you budgeting? What is that looking like? Looking through their internet uh uh histories, backgrounds, everything else. Like this needs to be open so that uh I can see what is influencing you and where are you going and and what dangers uh are around you there, uh that that see who you're traveling with and what those you know arrangements are like, uh people that have you know um uh carpal or or just clear open access um into your life so that um you've got those those those guardrails. I I I think you know, I think sometimes as leaders we we we can begin to quite frankly delude ourselves into thinking, well, that would never happen to me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. That's the that's the moment where you're in the most danger when you think, ah man, that that area I'm not succept succept. I uh I can I can err here, but not here. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Well, well, you we may think, oh man, uh, you know, I know where my you know, uh the the phrase, I know where my goats tied, or you know, I know where my struggles are and it's not over here. Well, it's not over there right now, but it doesn't mean it won't be there. Um and and and I think just the the um the consistency of the the leaders that have have carried the longest uh influence is is deeply rooted back to and how did you you said relational touch points? Is that how you phrase it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, relational touch points because because I'm thinking of daily habits. Uh so you have those relationships and and you're you know how in ILI uh you know we have autonomy to do things, but we like to run it by each other. Yeah, yeah. Simple, simple as that. You know, I made a decision. Um, I have the I have the the the authority to go and implement it, but I'll take it to Tim or I'll take it to you, yeah, and we'll we'll bet that idea around and you might show me some way that I can make it better, or it's if it's perfect, it's good, it goes. So same thing, um, you know, those touch points, those uh those moments where where we are having these shallow conversations that can turn deep in a moment if necessary.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and I and I would just I think add to that the invitation for access by consistently providing in those relational touch points that, hey, I'm inviting you to take a look here. I'm inviting you to be aware on this part of my life, intentionally engaging in that practice, um, and making that a regular habit in the midst of conversation. And again, I'm not saying we do this with just random strangers, but with with individuals that that we we trust ultimately have um have our followership to Jesus as their core interest, right? It's not it's not what's the most comfortable. For me, is their best interest or or or anything else. It's no, uh they want to see Christ magnified in me more than anything else, including our own very relationship. Uh that's the kind of thing. It's more than what's best for me.
SPEAKER_00:Right. It's it's about what's best for Jesus in me.
SPEAKER_02:There you go. I like that. I like I like that that phrase.
SPEAKER_00:Because we always because I've I've always thought, yeah, those those people have my best interests in mind, but that that's not quite there. It they really have the kingdom's best interests in mind. And as I am part of the kingdom of God, as I am a follower of Jesus, as I strive to look like Jesus, that's what they that's what they help me with. Nice, nice, nice.
SPEAKER_02:All right, so I'm gonna I'm gonna share my fifth and then and then so we finally agreed on one. We finally agreed on one, man. We got we got one in. Let's see how this one is. All right. This is the habit I think the fifth habit I've got listed for the most uh influential Christian leaders. Habit number five, they serve. I think influential Christian leaders have a heart of service. They're their influence is actually the result of, not the target of their actions. Their heart and their target is loving people in a service-minded and service-oriented way that results in them earning influence in their life, not because it's what they were seeking after, but because they long for that person to encounter Christ or or or or experience Christ or or have the kind of kingdom impact. Uh, they longed to see that person reaching their desired objective and goal. Um, and therefore they have a unabashed uh service orientation. I think that's a habit of influential Christian leaders. Um, and and if that's not our heart, if our heart is focused on the influence side, I think that's where you start getting into some some subtly skewed or destructive even patterns. Um, and so I think I think if uh influential Christian leaders are gonna be shockingly service-oriented in their uh in their thinking and mind.
SPEAKER_00:You know, it's so interesting how um how servant leadership has become such a buzzword everywhere. And it would be natural to be to be used in Christian circles, and we are called to serve, not only to serve, we are called to be the model of how to lead through service for the world. That's right, because we follow the servant leader per par excellence. A servant God. A servant God who sent a servant Jesus to, you know, uh Philip uh Philippians 2. And but the the rest of the world, the the the marketplace leaders, the the even political to talk talk about leadership through uh service, service as leadership, the servant as leader, who is a servant first, you know, Robert Greenleaf and and and all that kind of stuff. Um, yeah, it is it is uh it is such a different um and such a different way to lead. And honestly, although the world talks about it and they got all their models and everything, a true servant leader is only one who is following the servant leader Jesus.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So well, and I I heard a guy once, and this was so this was so helpful. Uh, he was actually confessing. He was confessing for him that he was describing servant leadership. And as he was describing it, he was talking about um uh so his marketplace leader, and he was just confessing. He said, guys, I sat with my sales team and I talked about how service equals sales, right? By serving, we'll get sales. And he he acknowledged that literally, even on the S for service, he had put it as a dollar sign. And he was confessing because he recognized, wait a second, I serve because I love people. And it and the motivation behind that is the sincere love. And that's where it extends from our followership of Jesus, right? We're we're secure in the Father. We talk about this with servant leadership. We're secure in the Father. We understand our identity and our our our calling as sons and daughters, and from that place of security, we're actually positioned uh not only to uh love ourselves, but to love others as ourselves. And that kind of radical service recognizes, you know, um, it's not about this moment or this sale. It's about loving you and serving you because you're made in the image of God, because um you you have value um to him so much that he would send his son to die for you. So I'm going to serve you, God has put you along my path or in my presence or in my community. I'm gonna serve you. And I think it's that kind of um, you know, and I'm learning this even from some of our non-Western uh brothers and sisters, it's that kind of relational attitude that results in the the larger, longer, uh bigger influence over time, right? You may not you may not do something radical today, but that's what that's when 10 years from now, suddenly you're the overnight success that nobody knew about because no, you were faithful in regularly serving the people in front of you every day to the to the utmost of your ability.
SPEAKER_00:Awesome. Servant leadership, such an important thing. Such a it is a it is a buzzword today, but it's a it's a 2,000-year-old practice because that's what Jesus taught, and that that's what he modeled. That's right.
SPEAKER_02:That's right.
SPEAKER_00:Well, Norval, what was your fifth, man? Okay, so my number five is so mundane. I call it personal well-being, and it it amounts to two things. Um, a well-balanced, healthy diet. Okay, and and uh regular, consistent, moderate exercise. Um I just I just can't see success and longevity in leadership without taking care of your health. And I've heard preachers talk about this. And and sometimes when we think about healthy diet and all of that, we think about obese folks, people like me who need to lose a little weight here in the middle section. But um, I heard this pastor talk about another friend whose problem was that he was so focused on winning the lost that he that he didn't eat properly and it sufficiently. He obviously didn't exercise sufficiently, but didn't sleep enough. And and that was killing him. And God spoke to him. Wow, and he nearly had a uh a heart attack, or he had a heart attack, uh, and then God said, Listen, you don't take care of this body, you won't be able to to uh to influence on the long term. So uh and they even talk about people who checked out, checked out as in left died, didn't finish well. Oh wow, because they didn't have time to finish well because they finished when they were 35 or 40 because of bad habits about diet and exercise, taking care of your body, you know, making sure that you are healthy. I have made it um a goal to be to be old. I am older but not old, but I my goal is to be old and healthy. I want to outlive my parents um uh who lived to their upper 80s. So uh and and I I said this, I want to be uh the longest living male in my family. The women are hard to beat because some some were up in the 90s and and uh but the men um typically um as it is uh everywhere, but that's that's one of my personal uh you know life goals is to to be the longest living member of my uh of my family.
SPEAKER_01:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:Male.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And uh and and to do that and continue to serve God, there are things I should have done when I was 20, I didn't. But I started at 40 and and and and they it I've I've reaped the benefits of what I started, how I how I changed at 40s. Um like Paul, I say, I'm not there, but I I I'm striving for it.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I I I think I think you're spot on, you know. Um I think there are so many Christian leaders that are are faithfully doing that. Uh and and when we think about the ones that have had some of the greatest influence, they have. They've been able to steward their body well uh and faithfully practice that. It's certainly one that God's convicting me over. In fact, I was just with a guy, um a friend of ILI, uh he's uh he's been a a judge uh for I guess 30, 40 years um in Georgia and here in the States. Incredible leader, uh incredibly influential. He's he's he's had uh just uh an incredible life. But he sat across the table from me and we were talking about some things. I said, wait a second, uh how old are you? And I realized I thought the man was maybe in his 50s, maybe 60. Um, but it all of this came into a question when I realized, wait a second, yeah, you've already retired. So how he's in his mid-70s and he's in great shape, uh, doing really well, um, and incredibly sharp. I mean, still, still uh literally judging cases, uh, significant cases, uh in his mid-70s. And uh he even testified to me in that moment. He said, Well, man, listen. He said, I get up in the morning, uh, I do I do some strength training every day, uh, and I I make sure I get eight or nine miles in every week, uh, worth of cardio. And I went, Really? He goes, Oh yeah. He said it's been transformational. He said, I've been doing it since I was in my 20s, and I went, Oh my gosh. And on my desk in my office right now is a book by David Mathis called A Little Theology of Exercise. Um, that just speaking to where God's God's convicting me uh on this particular practice uh and trying to trying to find that good place for that habit. Uh so I'll I'll say to your to your list, Norval, um uh on that one at least, uh a definite amen. A definite amen. Would you okay? So um if somebody Okay, let me add let me add one thing to this, to my last one.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, because I think there needs to be a third one. And it is um very simple. Go do your physicals, be preventative. Yeah, don't wait until you get a heart attack to put a stint on if you can prevent it. So um, you know, added to the exercise and the diet, I think the the the good stewardship of the body is is is doing you know seeking professional help, but to prevent rather than to cure. Um another uh personal experience. My all of my my father and all of my uncles were either hypertense or had cardiac problems and all kinds of things, several died of heart attacks and things like that. And so I decided when I was in my 30s, I was going to do um the the treadmill cardiac test on a regular basis from when I was very young.
SPEAKER_02:No kidding.
SPEAKER_00:And so I've been doing that I've countless times. And uh, you know, it's one little thing that you can do is is is that is go after you know prevention.
unknown:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:That's good. Well, that's that's a good word there, Norval. Well, we've we've we've been here for a minute, we've gone through these things. Can you quickly just hit us hit us one more time? Um list off those five habits that you think the most influential Christian leaders need to be practicing.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, number one, the daily spiritual habit or discipline, a rule of life. That's what I call it. Yeah, that's so beyond a devotional time. Number two, seven to eight hours of sleep. Make sure you get enough sleep. That's a good word. Deep work in the morning, grunt work in the afternoon. Number four, intentional relational touch points. And then number five, take care of yourself, personal well-being, good stewardship of the body.
SPEAKER_02:Man, I love that. Listen, leader, those are five incredible habits. I think if you engage in those, it will change your life. I'm gonna list my five off for you just one more time. Uh, consistency. Be incredibly consistent in the habits that God places in your life and in the habits that you choose. If you're not consistent, you lose some of that trust, some of that authenticity, and you're not going to see the long-term effects of a life lived in consistent followership. Uh, second, don't lose sight of that external influence that God has called you to have. You've got a set of people that God's calling you to lead, but don't lose sight of the external people that he's calling you to reach. That's the passion that he has for the harvest. Number three, be an author. Record or write the things that God is teaching you and showing you in your life. It's gonna help you reflect. It's gonna help you carry influence in the lives of others as you share and testify to what God's doing in you. Number four, have unequivocal accountability in your life. I know that's a big word. It just means this. Let people have unbelievably open access to your life, your finances, um, your technology, your appointments, your schedule. Let a set of incredibly trustworthy people see all of those things uh and to speak life and truth into you. Um, they're gonna help you avoid the pitfalls that you and I can make on any given day. They're gonna protect you, they're gonna guard you, they're gonna keep you. Uh, number five, serve. Service is the fundamental and foundational action that will result in influence. That's not the focus, that's not the point. The point is people were made in the image of God and we love them dearly because we see God reflected in them and we know that God loves them. He sent his son to die for them. And so it's our privilege to come and serve these people, helping them to encounter God and advance his kingdom. That kind of service results in transformational impact, not just in individuals, but in communities, nations, peoples. That is what's going to be unbelievably influential in your life. Uh Norval, I think we've got some really practical things here. I loved hearing your list uh from your perspective and your experience. Uh, and I love that even though we came from different places, man, God still brought, I think, some really fruitful things and even something in common.
SPEAKER_00:I loved, I loved your list as well. Uh, there are a lot of attitudes uh that a leader needs to have in order to be successful, uh success rightly defined. Right. Because that that'll be a whole another episode about what is success. Yeah. Um, but yes, uh, I think the lists are complementary in a way. And we ended up with nine, uh, not ten, but nine uh great insights for leaders.
SPEAKER_02:I love it. Listen, leaders, uh, I want to invite you at the International Leadership Institute. Listen, we believe that the kingdom of God, the gospel message of hope will accelerate as leaders are equipped uh with the eight core values of the most effective Christian leaders. We want to help meet you in that place. We want to resource you. You can find things at iliteam.org. There you'll learn more about how leaders around the world are discovering these eight core values, stepping into these kinds of habits, and ultimately advancing the kingdom in their context. Listen, there's too many helpless and hopeless people uh that don't know the hope that we have in Christ. Join the mission and join more than 400,000 men and women who've been transformed by this experience. We'd love to see you there. Ili team.org.