ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast

Ep. 75 | Beyond Charisma: Building Christlike Leadership that Lasts

• International Leadership Institute • Season 1 • Episode 75

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Tired of flashy leadership that burns out fast? This conversation pulls back the curtain on why charisma alone can’t carry a ministry—or any mission—for the long haul. Daniel sits down with Norival to contrast the quick spark of personality with the steady fire of Christlike character. Together they unpack how integrity means aligning what we believe with how we live—in public and in private—and why transparency beats the “photoshopped” profiles our culture rewards.

You’ll hear practical steps to grow as a leader of character: embracing discipleship as the core pathway, learning to own mistakes and apologize, and cultivating the emotional discipline to think marathon, not sprint. They explore the “compound interest” of daily faithfulness, leading through crisis without image management, and the power of community accountability—because every David needs a Nathan. You’ll also get a window into a recent global gathering of Christian leaders that affirmed discipleship as the church’s most urgent work, and how ILI equips leaders to live and lead like Jesus.

If you want leadership that endures beyond the hype, this episode is your roadmap to building a foundation that lasts. Tune in to gain insights on discipleship, integrity, and resilient Christian leadership that advances the Kingdom over a lifetime.

Join a community of leaders who are ready to change history and make an impact in this world. When you take part in ILI training, you will discover how ILI's Eight Core Values will help you transform your leadership. Discover more at ILITeam.org/connect.

SPEAKER_02:

Hey, Christian Leader, thank you so much for being a part of this conversation and this community with us. Uh listen, one of the most incredible ways that you can uh help serve in this journey together would be to like or subscribe, to share it with a friend, because in that journey, we actually equip one another. We connect each other to the larger movement and body of Christ. At the International Leadership Institute, this is what we've been doing for more than 25 years, walking alongside leaders, building connections and helping them to learn what it is to leave a legacy of Christ-like leadership, not only in their own lives and families, but truly in their nations, in their communities, and around the world. This is helpful to you. Doing those three simple steps, liking, sharing, subscribing, uh, and maybe even committing to share with a friend. That's how we're going to see the kingdom advance, more leaders equipped, and ultimately, God glorified. Uh, our promise to you, we're going to continue to bring some incredible conversations, uh, topics that are meaningful, helpful, useful for your life, for your leadership, and then connect you to the stories of Christian leaders around the world who are faithfully fulfilling the Great Commission. I know they'll be transformational for me, just like they're transformational for you, and together we'll see the kingdom advance. Really looking forward to today's conversation with Norval. Hey Norval, I'm excited because today I want to talk about something that's um, man, it's just really near and dear to my heart. It's something that I think about a lot. Uh, I think we live in a world in a day and age where um, man, celebrity and and charisma and and even uh uh kind of performance or being a performer has been so celebrated. But when I think about leading, I think about all of the examples where where those those things have just resulted in really an abject failure. Um, you know, one kind of silly example, but there's um there's this piece of technology not not long ago, uh, and I'm kind of a techie person. It was called the Rabbit AI, and it was meant to be this little piece of technology that would sit in your pocket, and like so many things before it, people were just raving, right? People were going, man, this thing's gonna be so great. It's gonna be so big, it's gonna have such a great impact. Um, man, it had all the headlines, it had so many venture capitalist uh venture capital groups backing it. Um, it had all of the the you know pomp and circumstance of something that was on the rise. And then when the product actually came, people looked at it and and they realized that it was uh uh it was a paper tiger, right? Like it wasn't it wasn't what it had shown itself to be, right? It was all uh uh talk and no no actual substance to the matter. And I think in in leadership, we often see that same story lived out as charisma rather than leaders with Christ-like character. We I I feel like um in the day and age that we live in, there's so much of that energy, uh, but there's the lack of the real substance that that has to come with it.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, we know each other through photoshopped uh Instagram profiles. That's right.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, and that's who we think people are. And that same thing happens to leaders, yeah. Um, you know, perfectly made up, um, airbrushed, and uh and only the best moments. And in and that even more than charisma, that is a a spun, you know, they a narrative that is spun about how much charisma I have. Yeah. And um because there is value in charisma. Sure. It's not totally uh negative if we recognize that the even the best charisma is short-lived.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, and that's where I think you know, charisma it it does something beautiful to mobilize people and and to engage people. It causes that quick spike. Um, but I think a danger that's often overlooked with that is it can really mask flaws. We can be an incredibly charismatic leader uh and not have those those imperfections that we do carry. We can begin to to lie to ourselves and miss those because our charisma has garnered us that early success that begins to make us believe that that we've got it all figured out and and that's where pride can really begin to creep in and and really undo us as as leaders. Um so Norval, I as I as I reflect on that, really the question I've got to ask is what does that character development look like? Like how do I how do I step into that? If I want to be a leader with character uh and not just a leader with with an initial or shallow charisma, what are some of the the early steps or stages that I can walk in that are gonna help me develop that?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, you know, if if anybody should think that that developing care leaders of character is is a secondary issue or is even important, but not quite. Um I had the privilege of participating in the largest gathering of Christians probably in the last 10, 15 years, the Luzon Congress that was held in uh in Seoul, Korea, um, in uh October of, I think it was October of last year. I can't believe it's almost a year. Yeah, I mean. Um and I was there and there were 6,000 other bully uh Christians and uh another 5,000 that were connecting uh online. So that's a pretty large crowd. And we were all given the opportunity to choose an issue to collaborate with, to talk about.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And so there were all kinds of issues, you know, social issues and evangelism issues, unreached people group issues, missionary issues. And obviously, there was one called Developing Leaders of Character. And being that we are we are a leadership development organization, I felt that's the most natural connection for me. And I signed up for it. Well, as it turned out, it was the largest by far group um in the entire Congress. We filled a very large ballroom. It was a very difficult, it was very difficult to conduct because it was supposed to be a quote unquote small group. Uh, but I don't know, we had hundreds uh of leaders of men and women who who felt like the the the biggest the the biggest challenge or the challenge they should be involved was developing leaders of character. And it was the most popular subject and and considered the most relevant. And it was exactly, we talked a lot about charisma. It was exactly what what we started this conversation about, talking about the flaws, the inherent flaws and of charisma in us in a fallen sinful world. Um and so to me that that in and of itself is an indication of um of the importance of the of the subject, of the of that supremacy of of charisma over, or sorry, of of uh um leader character over charisma. And uh and interestingly enough, a lot of the groups came to the conclusion that what the church needs to do from now on, so that the next generation of leaders will be leaders of more character than charisma is to invest in in a Bible-centered, gospel-centered, Jesus-centered disciple making.

SPEAKER_02:

Man, well, so again, we're we're looking at this and and you got an incredible group of people together, and their conclusion is we've got to help people follow in the way of Jesus. If we want to see leaders with character, the first step is to disciple them in the ways and practices of Jesus.

SPEAKER_00:

And not only that, in the um in the entire plenaire plenar plenary session, we did one of those online uh surveys with uh with with one of those world word clouds. Oh, yeah. So we all put the most important things that we felt the church needed to do, and and prayer became a big one. But then discipleship started growing, growing, growing. And by the end, the most that particular crowd of 6,000 plus people, the the word that most showed up in people's uh response to their survey was discipleship, was making disciples.

SPEAKER_02:

I think that's a response that really points to the the question in a lot of the church today, I think, is is looking at and a question for a lot of leaders today, how do I have a long-term win rather than a short-term win? Right? You look at the the S P 500, uh, 60 years ago, the average age of a company on the S P 500 was like 73 years. Okay. You look at it today, and it's like a 23-year-old company, which means it started after the year 2000, which is kind of mind-boggling to think about because there's been just such a shift toward the immediate, toward the uh uh fastest answer, the the quickest response. Um, but but as a Christian leader, we we want to see longevity. We, you know, the examples from scripture point to um much longer timelines and much longer timescales that God's interesting. We are the church.

SPEAKER_00:

We are a 2,000-year-old endeavor, right? I mean, what better example than that? You're absolutely right. So uh the a 2,000-year-old movement requires we want we're not gonna have 2,000-year-old leaders except for Jesus, but it requires leaders that will lead it through a lifetime and into the next generation.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, and I think the reason why we emphasize and why we see such a need for that character development is because with that kind of momentum, with that kind of a movement, we've got to build trust. And and that trust and that is a is a that trust comes with character, with integrity, with those aspects lived out over time. And they really help you to respond in the midst of crisis. Um, if you have sincere, consistent character, uh as crisis, which is inevitable in an organization, as that crisis comes, you're gonna see that character uh uh um meet the need and and help to lead and really cover some of the imperfections that come up in the midst of crisis. And that's why I think you we see this longing, especially coming out of COVID and all the crisis that we've seen globally, there's this, I think, renewed longing for character and integrity that allows for that leadership to carry through the crisis and through the hard moments.

SPEAKER_00:

In fact, the conversation about character is not a Christian conversation. Yeah. Um, it it's it is everywhere. But okay, so how do we do that in a practical way? I want to be a leader of character. What are some things that that we can do? Um the the first one that comes to my mind is our our final core value out of the eight is integrity. Yeah. And we define integrity, in essence, if if I could define it in one phrase, is is a consistency between who I am, what I stand on, the truth that I stand on, and my actions. So I the first thing that I can think of is if I can align what I believe with how I act. And um in private and in public.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Because if I don't if I do not practice integrity in in the secret place, my integrity in the public place will be manipulation and fake.

SPEAKER_02:

And I think I think the the the contemporary Christian leader needs to acknowledge there are a lot of pressures to not show those those losses, those failures, those shortcomings. And so what becomes easy is to have attitude, thought, word, and actions not align because not everyone sees all of them, right? And so, in in again, in our most public of personas, right? Our social media accounts, the the thing that gets the most viewership about us, we can show and say and and demonstrate a lot of really good things, but those actions aren't seen by that same audience. And then again, in private, we might have actions that are seen, but the words don't necessarily have to align because they may not see all the other spaces that we're in. And so it it gives us a unique, again, the modern context we're in gives us a unique opportunity to divorce our words and our actions uh from one another so that we can again have this perception, this personification of, oh, everything's all together, uh, but the reality is is unfortunately much darker.

SPEAKER_00:

But here's the thing though, because so many of us live our lives in the public eye today, much more with social media, much more than than before, because it was what was true of high profile leaders that were on TV or that were on the news, now is any any local pastor has an insta profile, and and you know, any local leader is is is living and leading in the eyes of the public through uh social media. So, but but but the counterpart is that at the same time, and and and this is something that that we can learn to do and we can begin to practice it in the day-to-day, is to not try to Photoshop our profiles and be transparent. I think the word I was I wanted to get to it and took me a little longer, but was transparency.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And and I think we we all build a a wall, like a a I I don't mean a wall of separation, but a wall like a wall where you pin your photos and you pin your images. We all create our remember, Facebook used to call the wall.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So we all have that wall. If that wall is transparent to where our true selves can be seen, that could be a good start.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I think I think that's an incredible start. And and it's important to note that that we build that wall because we have a perception, we have a belief that that we have to perform, that we have to um, you know, kind of meet some set of expectations. Or I guess really, really, it's probably again pride, pride sits behind so many doors. I really think we put up that wall because we feel the need to impress, we feel the need to look a certain part, right? Uh we have a pretty common phrase in the States, fake it until you make it, fake it till you make it. Uh, this idea that you just gotta put up that that front, but but that doesn't produce the kind of longevity. It isn't um serving of others, it's actually self-serving. And so we've gotta we've got to fight that desire to impress. And instead, we've got to look at the the longevity, the endurance, and the long-lasting impact that character makes over the long run. Um, you know, there are countless examples, I think, both in scripture uh and in uh just in the the larger world around us where that that slow growth, right, uh actually is a is a demonstration of the character of some of the leaders. And and it isn't flashy, it isn't immediate, it isn't this this flash of the pan, it isn't an overnight success. It's the overnight success that was 20 years in the making, right? Uh you think about you know how much was David's character in in the scriptures, how much was David's character being formed in the midst of the wilderness while he was being chased by Saul, while he was surrounded by just the few guys that were gonna stay with him and and surround him and encourage him and strengthen him and and you know run back to his town to get some water. Uh like David had a very different experience than Saul. Um, and yet God chose to bring his own son through the line of David. Um and though Saul was tall and uh had killed his thousands, right? He had done mighty things, uh, he lacked the the character uh that was necessary to to lead the nation on into the future.

SPEAKER_00:

To endure that's right. And and and that is where the flashy Saul didn't endure, the little David with his ARP and and and his sheep and his uh his slingshot, you know, was the one who succeeded because and he wasn't without flaws, but being a leader of character is not being perfect, yeah, except in the sense be perfect as your father is perfect. But it's that's not perfection in an absolute sense. I mean, gosh. Sometimes I say, if I was God, I wouldn't choose David as a man after my own heart. Because he he more than once he made plenty of mistakes and compounded mistakes, but his heart was in God.

SPEAKER_02:

And I think that's the lesson for us today is like own those mistakes, right? Own them and own them transparently. That's what we could do today to combat those initiatives, to say, how do I remain in a position as a leader with character? Own the mistakes, understand that that it's not that we don't have mistakes, that we're gonna own them. We're gonna we're gonna lead transparently in the midst of them, and we're gonna set that kind of example in front of the people, which requires us as leaders to have grace, not only for the people we're leading, but even for ourselves.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. And that that would be the second practical insight of of the of the whole um leaders of character uh issue. You want to be a leader of character, you will make mistakes. Make no mistake, you will make mistakes, but own them. If we have the courage to own our mistakes and learn to apologize, it's amazing how many people have somehow lost the ability to apologize, or they don't feel the need to apologize.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I I think again, I think we end up living in our own heads, having conversations with ourselves more than we end up with the people uh that we actually are are are leading or influencing. And again, I think I think that comes from that that that celebr um that celebration of the celebrity, right? Where it's this idea that uh, you know, I can I can just have my have my place where I'm posting and it's a it's a billboard, it's a it's a megaphone, and it's it's not a place where where any of those private kind of conversations are had. But if we want to have that kind of of legacy that reflects uh transformational movements, that reflects um the most you know high caliber and high quality organizations and and leaders, it's gonna have to be built from uh a faithful development of character in self. Um, as you're saying already, we know that's gonna be character based on the person of Christ. It's gonna be in discipleship relationships, it's gonna be character that that is lived out uh uh with transparency, with authenticity, that demonstrates um acknowledgement of error, uh, that owns mistakes, um, that leads other people uh in that same kind of of practice and action. But I I I think my question is is when I'm leading out of that character and it feels like I'm not making a whole lot of movement. Um, you know, we you you had a a statement that you made earlier about how, you know, charisma is kind of like a honeymoon, but character is kind of like interest. Uh and I just can't get that out of my head because there are moments where when you're when you're investing, you don't see the immediate return, but that compound interest really adds up over time. How do you keep the the emotional discipline of investing in character um when it it feels like those returns don't come as quickly as you want?

SPEAKER_00:

Like like we joked about us, you know, we're we we're part of a thousand year a two thousand-year-old movement. I think the uh the awareness that this is a marathon. Don't don't don't look at leadership as a as a hundred meter dash. I'm fascinated by the hundred meters because if you're not totally focused and paid attention to it, you'll you miss it. Fair because it's ten seconds.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And it takes an incredible amount of strength, but it's a different kind of strength.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

On the other hand, where you really see the character of a of an athlete is when they have to run 42 and a half and kilometers for hours running and trying to keep ahead of the guy behind them. Yeah. And you see, and and and here's the interesting thing. The the biggest stories that you hear or that you see in images are these people coming into the final stretch of the marathon, and they can barely walk. They've lost body body mass just in the run. Well, they lost their mind-body coordination. Oh, yeah. They're like running sideways. They're they fall, but they there's a there's something in there. There's that character, there's that integrity, determination. We love to tell the story of John Stephen Akwari, yeah, who uh hurt his knee in the middle of the marathon, but finished nonetheless, wobbly and bloody. And then when interviewed, he said, My country didn't send me here 8,000 miles to start a race, they sent me here to finish the race. And so that that Paul said, not that I've achieved, I forget what's behind, and I press on towards what's ahead. That focus, Hebrews. I let go of all the sin and all the weight and I run the race with my eyes focused on the prize. I think that that single focus on the prize is one of the things. It's there's there's more. It's one of the things, one of the areas that um that can help give us that discipline. Give us that discipline to focus on character, focus on the long run. And if the results don't come yet, we persevere until they do, or until and and here's the thing, sometimes they will come in the next generation and we won't see. There are people who've invested their entire lives only to see the result come in um in the next generation. I rem I my mind goes to Nate Saint and Jim Elliott and the other guys who were who were who gave their lives to reach the Waladani Indians in in Ecuador. They never saw the results. They invested, they went, they and they did it, but then their wives reaped the reward. Reaped the reward after they were done. And of course, we imagine them uh when we read the scripture about the great cloud of witnesses, yeah, we figure that they were there carrying their wives on, and their and their and their their son, uh Steve, whom I've I had the privilege of seeing um many years ago, talking uh to the Wall Dunny native that had killed his father. They they were too they were together um talking about the power of the gospel. Um and uh and that so a lot of times we gotta realize there is a possibility, there is a distinct possibility that we will not see the breakthrough in our generation, but we press on. Amen.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I think I think that's such an encouragement to me as as we do, we look at those things, right? We can see the the fire that charisma brings, the energy, the excitement, the momentum. Um, and and we do, we see that as a gift, but it's a gift, it's a fire, it's not the foundation. That Christ-like character has to be the foundation. And you're right, we must trust and and see and remember and rejoice that that in that sowing God is reaping a harvest, uh uh a hundredfold of what we might be able to produce out of our own charisma or or ability.

SPEAKER_00:

And one more thing, Daniel. Have you ever heard the the saying that it's it's it's lonely up at the top? Yeah, leaders are lonely, but that's a problem. Yeah, because the another probably one of the most important aspects of this leading with character is that you will only lead with character if you're not alone. We will only lead with character if we're surrounded by a community that will support us, to whom we are accountable, who will be able to call us on our sin. That's right, or on our flaws. You know, every David needs a Nathan. That's right. Right? David went out there and did all the the junk, the terrible stuff that he did. I'm not gonna say it, but we those who know the story know about Bethsheba, Bethsheba, and then uh him killing her her husband and marrying her. And then Nathan, the prophet, comes and confronts David. And uh yeah, the every David needs a Nathan.

SPEAKER_02:

We gotta have that community. Uh we've got to surround ourselves with it. That's what's gonna hold us uh close, give us the accountability we need for the kind of character that Christ calls us to. And I think that's why he told us to be in community. And the scriptures remind us, right, not to forsake the gathering of the of the of the body uh for that benefit and many others. Well, as always, Norval, I think uh there's so much that we can learn and grow together. Uh, I love that we're able to reflect on uh what it looks like to be leaders with with character. Uh and I do, I think you're right. Um that gathering was uh was a global gathering uh about a year ago of some of the most influential Christian leaders from around the world sitting down and having a conversation to understand what is the state of the gospel, how do we move it forward? And uh and that remains a key question today. How do we uh equip, develop, and uh disciple leaders with Christ-like character? I'm thankful uh to be in that journey with you uh here at ILI and to be able to serve and equip those leaders all around the world.

SPEAKER_00:

It's uh it's such a privilege for us to do even a small part in uh in that discipleship process. One of the things we've been talking about a lot is how equipping leaders is the work of discipleship because after all, we're all apprentices under Jesus anyway.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

And it's just that some of us have been in it at it a little longer, and we can help those who are who are coming behind us um even to the next generation to continue on the legacy that our Lord Jesus started with 12 guys and a bunch of uh women and and some others 2,000 years ago. So still going.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right, still going. Love it. As always, Norval, thanks for a great conversation today, man.

SPEAKER_00:

Awesome, yeah.