ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
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ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Ep. 61 | Spirit-Led Leadership: Making More Room for The Holy Spirit
In this powerful episode, we revisit Pentecost and dive deep into the historical and spiritual legacy of this pivotal moment in Christian history. Nearly 2000 years after the birth of the Church, ILI’s Daniel Drewski and Norival Trindade reflect on how Pentecost continues to shape leadership, worship, and the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives today.
Join Daniel and Norival as they navigate how cultural differences dramatically shape our expectations of the Holy Spirit's movement. This episode will explore:
➡️ Why Pentecost is more than just a celebration
➡️ The challenge of embracing the Holy Spirit in modern church life
➡️ The tension between spiritual authenticity and the pursuit of excellence
➡️ Practical insights for church leaders seeking Spirit-led direction
Many church cultures celebrate spontaneity—sometimes viewing technical glitches as evidence of divine authenticity—while most Western churches often meticulously plan services to the second. For leaders who are feeling spiritually dry or wondering, "Spirit, where are you?", the answer often lies in simply stepping out in obedience to join God's mission already in progress.
Whether you're a church leader, a believer seeking deeper understanding, or simply curious about Pentecost, this heartfelt and thought-provoking discussion will inspire, challenge, and invite you to wait, listen, and follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as you let God direct the best-laid plans with His perfect presence.
#Pentecost #HolySpirit #ChurchLeadership #HistoryMakersLeadershipPodcast #ILITeam
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Pentecost is an incredible anniversary and celebration. 1,992 years ago the Church of Christ was born and Norval. Since then I feel like we've kind of had a whole lot of conversations and maybe even some conflict around it.
Speaker 2:That's true. Almost 2,000 years ago, a bunch of people were praying in a room and all of a sudden, something very special happened. Praying in a room and all of a sudden something very special happened. And here we are, almost two millennia after that, having a conversation, because there are some different opinions on different ways the Holy Spirit works.
Speaker 1:Well, Norval, I'd love to have a conversation Maybe let's talk about Pentecost planning and maybe even some of the practices of leaders that are seeking to have the Holy Spirit present in our life and leadership.
Speaker 2:Yes, sir, let's do it.
Speaker 1:So, overall, there's this concept that I was talking about recently with another brother when we were looking at and just kind of wrestling down this idea of in so many moments in the Western church I feel like we worship excellence more than we're worshiping God.
Speaker 1:I feel like we sometimes can miss a real sense and practice of the Holy Spirit in the life of our church, in the life of the attitudes and actions that we take and you know we're coming up on Pentecost, right, the life of the attitudes and actions that we take.
Speaker 1:And you know we're coming up on Pentecost right, the anniversary of the church, the birth of the church of Jesus Christ. And there are lots of opinions around the Holy Spirit that exist right. There are people who believe that some of the gifts of the Spirit have ceased in their form and there are some who believe that the gifts of the Spirit are still very much active and in full breadth. And yet, as I think about the Christian faith, I think, no matter where we fall on that spectrum, we all can agree that the Holy Spirit has to be alive and present in our life and leadership for us to be effective at the calling that God has for us. But, as we were kind of talking this morning, we were just kind of reflecting on some of that reality and you expressed that from your background in Brazil and some of your culture there. Maybe there were some differences you had experienced and I'd love to just kind of have a conversation around it Absolutely Well.
Speaker 2:what I was saying this morning is that being a what we call a third culture person meaning that I grew up in Brazil and I am fully Brazilian, but I have lived in three different countries of the world in the US, in Paraguay and in Brazil and when you do that, you acquire a skill the ability to look at your own culture and see some things that you would not see if you were just in it. It's just interesting that it's like you can look at your own culture from the outside, and what I've noticed is there is one of the core values of Brazilian culture, even worldview, is that spontaneity is valued as a high valued quality. So if your ability to be spontaneous and that's why Brazilians are what they are we are spontaneous, we are outgoing, for the most part never met somebody who wasn't a friend, knows everybody, but translated to the church, particularly to charismatic Pentecostal circles. I have seen many people believe that the only way for the Holy Spirit to move is for you to go into the service without any idea what you're going to do or what songs you're going to sing or what the program is, and then let the Spirit touch, which means totally spontaneous. Let me tell you a funny story.
Speaker 2:There was a Brazilian pastor who was hired to lead a very significant organization here in the US and they moved to Atlanta and I think they went to Charles Stanley Church Okay, big Baptist Church, with orchestra choir, you name it everything, the whole nine choir, you name it everything. And a few months after this Brazilian gentleman told me his daughter complained, said she didn't want to go to church anymore. And she said why don't you want? She says because I can't stand the church here in America, because everything works. Because everything works. There is no feedback on the microphones. Whenever people step up to the microphone, it's ready to go, the songs start on key and on time. She was missing the spontaneity that leads to some failures and some issues, but it feels like it's a spontaneous thing of the moment. So it is that interesting contrast about from planning things to the second and I must confess, as a Brazilian, I still struggle when we plan things and we plan it to the second.
Speaker 1:I just know there's a program service coordinator who's listening to this right now. He's just feeling all the things, but I mean again Norval. And there's a Brazilian watching saying, yes, he's just, he's just feeling all the things, but I mean again Norval.
Speaker 2:And there's a Brazilian watching saying yes that's right, that's right.
Speaker 1:Well, I just, I don't know. There's, there's some part of me, um, that that feels like uh, uh, again a little bit in the West. We we have. We've gotten to a point where we ask the Holy Spirit to bless our programming after we've already made all the decisions, rather than inviting him in to that process. And I think, as is often the case, right, maybe the pendulum has swung a little far on one side and maybe it's starting to swing back. But I'd love to kind of think aloud with you here, with you here. You know the other side of that where, if there's no planning, structure, program whatever, yeah, I mean, gosh, how many distractions come in failed mic handoffs and feedback and all of those other things, right, that pulls us away from the act that God is doing there and becomes almost an impediment to that. How do we find some healthy practices? We believe the Holy Spirit and the leader is an important relationship and connection point. How do we find a healthy?
Speaker 2:place here. Well, the issue we want to discuss is not whether organization is better than disorganization or spontaneity. For the sake of organization or for the sake of spontaneity? Correct? Because then we're making the same mistake. You said we worship the organization. Or for the sake of spontaneity? Because then we're making the same mistake. That's right. You said we worship the organization. On my side, we worship the spontaneity. That's right. The thing is, how do we create an environment where the Holy Spirit can move? Now let me suggest that we do something. I've been holding this thought since we started the conversation, which is to go back in time. Okay, so we're doing this, as you said, because it's Pentecost Sunday. Pentecost Sunday, for those of us recording Pentecost Sunday, is coming up in a few days. That's right. Obviously, the podcast is going to air sometime later. For those watching, pentecost was a week ago or three years ago depending on when you're watching this video or listening to this podcast.
Speaker 2:But it's a past, but it'll come back next year, and so Pentecost is the anniversary of the church, that's right. And so Pentecost is the anniversary of the church because of what happened almost 2,000 years ago. Based on the calculations, people are thinking 2033 will be the year and the 2,000th anniversary of the church. Well, so let's go back there and try to imagine. Since the Easter, since the resurrection, I've been living in the post-resurrection scriptures, like those things that happened between Easter and Pentecost. That's right. Yeah, all these encounters with Jesus, all of Jesus showing up out of nowhere in the middle of a room where they were locked in, or walking with the two disciples to Emmaus or fishing with the disciples and having breakfast by the beach, all of those things, and then ascending into heaven.
Speaker 2:That's right. Well, jesus ascends into heaven and he says wait, wait in Jerusalem until you will be filled with power. Wow, and if I were there I'd say okay, jesus, wait for what? Yeah, what's it going to look like? Right, are we going to see something? Yeah, are you going to tell us something? Is an angel going to show up? What is it going to see something? Are you going to tell us something? Is an angel going to show up? What is it going to be like? And so they did. And so they stay there and they prayed.
Speaker 2:And I heard Pete Grieg this week on Lectio 365 mention that he imagines them praying 24-7. Yeah, that they just didn't stop praying 24-7, that they just didn't stop praying. They were in there and they would take breaks, but they were essentially praying nonstop. And Luke describes it very clearly that suddenly something happened. No planning, sorry, that kind of favors my side of the issue. No planning, no program. Suddenly, they heard the sound like a wind and they saw what looked like fire. I've learned that all of these metaphors from the Bible is their best way to try to explain something that is unexplainable. Way to try to explain something that is unexplainable Right Today. We might have said something like a ray of electricity, like a lightning electricity or something, some kind of crazy LED light bar Right exactly, but they called it fire which landed on each one's heads and they started praying and glorifying God in other languages.
Speaker 2:And then the rest, as we say, is church history. That's right, that's right, and so that's what happened there. 2,000 years later, we have all of these discussions whether tongues can still wear miracles, wear prophecy, or how it manifests, how it should be Right. But, as you said, there's one thing we can't deny Until the Holy Spirit came they were supposed to wait, and you know it reminds me.
Speaker 1:So, in our church we've been reading through Samuel and if we reflect on Saul, right, saul was anointed as king, and where was Saul's failure? It was this moment where he was told to wait for Samuel to come and to make the offering. And it was in the failure to wait that Saul actually had his initial failure. And then, you see, he begins to excuse his failure as a, as a. Well, I was just doing this extra for worship and and I didn't want to start the battle without first, you know, uh, making this sacrifice. But the instruction had been to wait, not to begin the work prior to the arrival of the one who was being sent to come, which, in that case, was Samuel. And in this case, I think the apostles obviously did right, waiting for the Holy Spirit to come.
Speaker 1:And I think that I don't know, as you were saying that, that's where my mind went to, where we've been reading in the book of Samuel and reflecting and going okay, you know, in my planning, how often am I not waiting, right, I'm just running after that. Because you know in my planning, how often am I not waiting, right, I'm just, I'm just running after that, because you know that man next Sunday is coming, next Sunday is coming and I got to have that next message, I got to have that next uh, you know, uh, illustration, video and presentation and and worship set and and all of the accoutrement that comes with production, um, and yet, uh, you know we have missed that waiting can be worship and I think it's in the waiting that we can be still and know that he is God and live in that tension a little longer than I don't know. Then my culture is used to waiting.
Speaker 2:And whatever the case may be, whether it's a meeting that is done with or without planning, with a lot of planning or with a little bit of planning, the waiting manifests in the expectation that the Holy Spirit is going to be there. That's right, and that he's in control. That's right. Yes, and maybe that's where we miss the boat.
Speaker 1:Well, I think I don't know. I get the sense sometimes that we ask for a blessing on a plan we made without him right.
Speaker 1:Right rather than asking him to give us the plan, and to give us the plan with sufficient clarity that we can begin to work it out. And all that Because I do think that God can and does work in the midst of those things and that it requires intentionality. A cool story from a church I know, a very large church. They probably have uh 20 000 in attendance on any given weekend, so so very, very substantial in size, a wonderful ministry. Uh, goodness, I think they have more than 100 nations represented in their congregation let alone in the, in the ministries that they they serve and connect with globally.
Speaker 1:Okay, so just to give you an idea of the size and scope. And they say they have a Mary Martha principle and they seek to practice, throughout all of the planning and all the preparatory work, a practice of the presence of God, a seeking of the Holy Spirit's wisdom, discernment, direction. But here's the rule 30 minutes before, if anything breaks, they just roll with it, they don't try and fix it.
Speaker 1:They don't try and solve it. They just go okay, all right, what's our next step? How do we continue to do this thing, god, that you've put in front of us, in spite of this interruption? And they seek to have the grace in the moment for all involved. Hey, we're going to trust the Lord here.
Speaker 1:If all the power cuts out and we've got 20,000 people in a blacked out building, okay, we're going to give you know so-and-so's, going to stand here and the leader's going to stand up, start giving the instructions, and we're going to navigate that with grace and with love and with humility. And it's not this mad rush to oh no, all of the things have broken and we got to make the production still happen. It's a practice in saying Lord, this isn't a surprise to you, holy Spirit. You knew all of the. So what is it that you want right now? And we're going to try our best to listen, to hear and then to speak from that, even if the sermon is totally different, the message is totally different, the worship experience is totally different. If everything changes, we're okay to do that, because we've committed that from this point forward.
Speaker 2:Daniel, you remind me of an experience that I had. I play the guitar in our church and I don't think I had played more than three or four services with a full band in the church when one Sunday morning the lights went out and I played acoustic guitar. So guess what? It was me. It was me and the drummer, but they said no, let's not do drumming, let's leave the drums, let's just do acoustic guitar. And our church was not that large, but it was quite the experience to lead through worship. In that.
Speaker 2:However, daniel, I think we could move on from that aspect of the Holy Spirit in preparation versus the manifestation creating space for the Holy Spirit in the context of worship in the church, creating space for the Holy Spirit in the context of worship and the church. But then let's take it one step forward, because Jesus says you will receive power on the Holy Spirit, come upon you and you will be my witnesses. That's right. So what really matters to us is that, out of that worship, planned or not, out of the gathering, out of us being the church, we've got a job to do. We've got a mission to fulfill. Amen, and the mission is to be witnesses that's right In Jerusalem, judea, samaria and to the ends of the earth. And that's where the importance of doing it in the power of the Holy Spirit. I was recently. We even have an episode about it. I was recently at Luzon in Korea and a few weeks ago you and I were at Komiban. We have episodes debriefing those two events.
Speaker 2:Both those events and there is a sense in the global church, in the leadership of at least the evangelical movement or wherever we community, we're part of that we need to bring a new emphasis on the Holy Spirit for the sake of our mission. Luzon both themes, for Luzon and for Comiban, where they, we both studied the book of acts, we both talked about the, the, the, the absolute need of the Holy Spirit, and, interestingly, I believe, both events culminated with a call to a revival that would empower our mission to go to the ends of the earth, both locally, but also to the ends of the earth. So, yeah, it's all about the mission, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It's completely about the mission, because, again, the Spirit testifies to the Father and the Son, and I think, throughout the Scriptures, when God—like a better phrase—when God shows up, transformation takes place. There's a response to the power and the presence of God as he arrives in the lives of people. Throughout the examples in the scriptures, and I think what I'm sensing, at least as I interact with the global body, is a call to remember, a call to seek, a call to, to note, to see, to long for. Spirit of God. You cause the transformation that we long to see. You cause the transformation that we long to see, and so we want to be where you are. We want to be not ahead of you, not behind you, but with you, you abiding in the midst of the movement.
Speaker 1:And I think that's true, for I mean every church. I mean what church wouldn't want the Spirit of God to be alive, active, powerful, present in the midst of every service, every gathering. Spirit of God to be a live, active, powerful, present in the midst of every service, every gathering, every small group, sunday school, outreach, in-reach, whatever they call, any action that they take. Goodness don't. We want people to encounter the transformational work of God in them and around them, and that's that's the power of the Holy Spirit living in the lives of his people. He manifests himself such that it causes transformation, personally and in the community around them.
Speaker 2:Well, it is really the only way to be witnesses for real is with the Holy Spirit. He goes before us, so he will be there. Holy Spirit, he goes before us, so he will be there. He is the one working in the heart of those we serve, whether it is to receive a gift or receive a service that will help a person in need, whether it is to listen to what we have to say about Jesus. When we teach history makers, we always all of our core values end up with the lost being reached, people being reached with the gospel, people hearing and having the opportunity to respond with the gospel. That's what we do, but without the Holy Spirit, it becomes all empty.
Speaker 2:It would become because we know we have the Holy Spirit. So we don't have to think what if we just need to think what it would be without it?
Speaker 1:Well, and I think, as with so many things, it can become easy to become numb to that or to become just unaware of how important intentionality in that relationship is. You know he's a full member of the Godhead right in Orthodox Christianity weird uncle that we don't talk about but rather he's the Spirit of God that dwells within us, that testifies to God and to the glory of Christ. And again, you know we could get into Trinitarian theology and all the elements there. But to your point, it is a Spirit that is uniquely given to us by God to enable us to accomplish the Great Commission. Without him we would be incapable of doing so and I think it's so important for us to remember that, to live within that and honestly, probably to celebrate it more. It can be easy to begin to believe in a moment that it is purely of our own ability or volition or action that we're able to accomplish the various works that God has called us to. But I think you're right. Every element of the gospel, of expanding the kingdom of God, of testifying to this good news that is for all peoples, it is a work of the Spirit through us that does that with any measure of success, because it's that working in us and through us, and in and through the heart of this other individual that's listening, that really begins to create that energy, that transformational energy, I should say.
Speaker 1:It reminds me I don't know if you've ever seen this, but you're familiar with a tuning fork. Okay, so tuning forks are designed to resonate at a particular frequency, and there's a cool demonstration you can do in a science class I used to be a teacher and you take a tuning fork that is set to a particular frequency and you put it on a box and you take a similar tuning fork, but set to a different frequency, and if you hit it, you know they're in two separate spaces. You hit one and nothing will happen to the other, but if you take two that are set to the exact same frequency and you hit one, it will actually cause the other to begin to vibrate. Okay, it's really common. Like with pianos, if you hold down the sustain pedal and you hit one note, it hits the other harmonics and it's a cool part of physics, I think.
Speaker 1:What happens is, as the Spirit of God, which is alive in us, begins to awaken the heart of the other person, it begins to cause this resonance. It's an illustration, if you will, of that reality. But all of that to say in the life as I live as a Christian leader. What are some practical steps, Norval, that you see our brothers and sisters practice around the world I don't want to say inviting the Spirit of God into our life and practice because he's there. It's not like he's uninvited, right. But how can we practice listening to that more clearly and living in that space with greater consistency?
Speaker 2:Well, I think every different person, every person is different. For some, like myself, I'm an introvert silence music Daniel.
Speaker 2:I have learned about repetition recently? Tell me this I have learned about repetition recently. Tell me this my wife has one particular scripture sung to music at the office. We all joke about it with her on repeat play. It's just she is listening to that verse of scripture sung, or reading it or mentioning it, to the point that it keeps coming back. So those practices, it's like the I love the illustration of the tuning fork because, let's use that metaphor to us and so we're not necessarily a tuning, we're a tuning fork, but we are a variable type of tuning fork, yeah, yeah. So we're like the string of a guitar, sure Tighter or looser If I tighten the string of my guitar to the practice of worship. These are some practices that invite, that attune us to the presence of the Holy Spirit, amen. It's kind of like they stretch our strings until we reach that frequency and we begin to resonate the presence of the Spirit of God.
Speaker 1:I think, and I love that you share that and share what you've been observing, even in Christina, your own wife, and those things, I think one of the things that God's been trying to speak to my heart over is hey, have not a, have a uh, uh, not just a healthy pace, but a sacred pace for life, um to listen to, to slow down, um, to practice Sabbath in such a way that that, you know, in the midst of the hurry and the hustle and the bustle I mean again, I live a very typically Western life of of man there's always things right Like the, the schedule, the schedule is always abounding Um, but there's so much of the presence of God that is, uh, the still small voice, the, the weight, the slow, the be, still the quiet, the.
Speaker 1:You know, in the midst of all that could distract in my life, um to to have uh in practice. That that uh, that pace, that sacred pace uh, that I think God is is again maybe this is just a personal conviction here, but certainly calling me uh to live within and as I think about uh, practicing the, the presence of God, living in such a way that the Holy Spirit is active and alive and moving and leading and walking in my leadership. I know that's a real practice, that he's calling me to, and it's nothing new.
Speaker 2:You just mentioned the practice of the presence. You just quoted Brother Lawrence of the. Cross, a medieval cook in a monastery that wrote one of the most amazing classical books on prayer. But it is that invitation of the Holy Spirit to come and invade our lives, interrupt whatever we're doing and take control of us through the practice of these disciplines. You talked about these sacred rhythms. The new generation that Gen Z is waking up to. A lot of people are waking up or just rediscovering monastic practices.
Speaker 1:Yeah, rules of life.
Speaker 2:Rules, of a rule of life, to seek the presence of God and attune ourselves to the Holy Spirit, and then let him do what he does best, which is to move us into mission, and then we will be on mission with Him.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think, even for some, maybe there's a measure of complacency that they see in themselves or feel in themselves. Perhaps I think, even for some believers, for some brothers and sisters listening, it may be that the action they need to take is actually that first step of obedience and following where God's calling, where he's leading, right, when we step into the mission that he's given us. He promises to meet us there, right, think about the end of the Great Commission. He says, and I am with you, right, like, as you're doing these things, and while you're doing these things, and in the midst of teaching, baptizing, as you go about this great commission, I'm with you. I'm with you. And so it's in the midst of that. If we're like man, holy Spirit, where are you? Sometimes I think it's hey, I'm on mission, where are you? Let's go, join in. And what an encouraging call to believers today. If we're sensing or longing for the presence of God, if we're saying Spirit, where are you Be about the mission of God, and we will certainly find him there.
Speaker 2:I love that, daniel. I think that's going to be my next prayer. Spirit, where are you? And then just follow, just follow, just follow. I love it. Submit and follow, amen. And we get to do it together. That's even better.
Speaker 1:Oh, amen, and we get to do it together, that's even better. Oh man, brother, I love it. I love it. Hey, listen, leaders. I want to thank you so much for listening in. Listen. At the International Leadership Institute, we exist to serve Christian leaders around the world. We want to help equip you with the eight core values of the most effective Christian leaders. In them and among them, we're talking about intimacy with God, passion for the harvest, topics like integrity or faithful stewardship, the importance of things like family priority or multiplication of leaders or culturally relevant evangelism. Across all of these topics and many things more, you're gonna find some resources at iliteamorg. We exist to serve and equip the leaders of the world that God has called out so that the great commission can be accomplished, the kingdom of God can advance and the gospel will not just increase but actually accelerate as you and I fulfill our God-given vision, mission calling purpose. Thank you so much for listening in and being a part of this, norval. It's always great to have a conversation, brother.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's great to talk about things of the kingdom, amen.