ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Explore the transformative journey that is leadership. In each episode, we will dive deep into strategies, stories, insights, and the core values that shape and inspire effective Christian leaders who make an impact - all around the globe. Get ready to unlock your leadership potential.
When leaders are equipped, kingdom impact multiplies. Equipping leaders and spreading the Gospel. Let’s change history together!
This podcast is brought to you by the International Leadership Institute.
ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Ep. 58 | Faith in Action: Revitalizing the Church for a New Generation
The modern church stands at a critical crossroads between consumer Christianity and authentic discipleship. As Barna research reveals, there's a striking disconnect—while believers desire churches engaged in social justice and community transformation, many struggle to personally embrace their role as evangelists and disciple-makers.
ILI's Daniel Drewski and Norival Trindade share how this shift toward relational, participatory faith shapes ministry: "We bought that coffee machine and we kind of laughed because it was not inexpensive, but it feels like one of the more meaningful ministry investments my family has made." Simple hospitality creates natural opportunities for the authentic community where faith conversations happen organically without a facade.
"We outsourced the mission and became consumers of the faith," Norval shares, highlighting how believers often attend church to receive rather than participate. This passive approach drastically differs from Jesus' model of discipleship. The full invitation of the gospel isn't merely to be saved or personally transformed, but to become agents of transformation for others.
What's fascinating is how younger generations, particularly Gen Z, are rejecting this spectator Christianity. They crave authenticity and meaningful participation—they don't want religious performance but genuine community where faith manifests in tangible action. This generation demonstrates deep distrust of institutions while simultaneously showing remarkable zeal for authentic expressions of Christianity.
Perhaps most provocative is the Western church's need to learn from believers in persecuted regions who demonstrate remarkable spiritual vitality despite minimal resources. Their house churches remind us that the power of Christian community has never been in its programming or facilities but in Spirit-transformed relationships multiplying discipleship through authentic connections.
Ready to move beyond spectator Christianity? Subscribe to join our exploration of leadership principles that are revitalizing the church across the globe. Together, let's rediscover how ordinary believers living extraordinarily committed lives become the catalyst for genuine community transformation.
When you begin ILI training, you will discover how the Eight Core Values will lead to the Seven Outcomes in your life and the lives of those you lead. Join a community of leaders who are ready to change history and make an impact in this world. Discover more at ILITeam.org/connect.
Welcome to the History Makers Leadership Podcast, where we explore the transformative journey that is leadership. Each episode, we will dive deep into strategies, stories, insights and the core values that shape and inspire effective Christian leaders who make an impact all around the globe. This podcast is brought to you by the International Leadership Institute. Now get ready to unlock your leadership potential and let's change history together.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the HistoryMakers Leadership Podcast. My name is Daniel, and Norval and I are excited to share with you just some recent thoughts and things that we've read and looked at. But before we get started, I want to invite you. If this is helpful, useful, if these conversations are fruitful for you, I just ask that you would like share, subscribe, do some of those different things. We want to get this resource into the hands of faithful men and women like yourself who are making a difference for the kingdom.
Speaker 2:Norval, we were looking at and kind of discussing just some of the kind of ongoing trends in the church. Right, there remains in the church Barna had a study the state of the church. There remains a high level of a desire for what are often referred to as like social justice, themed work, you know, caring for widows and orphans. Right, you know. Right, pure and undefiled religion would be maybe one kind of way of framing it. But for the church to be active in some of those spaces, we also see trends that Gen Z, the next generation, are zealous and excited about some of the things in the church.
Speaker 2:We also hear that if you're going to be a church in the future, you've got to be a church that's making an impact in your community, because that's how people are going to find you. And yet we find time and time again that there is this kind of disconnect between the desire for those outputs and the internalization. That that is our responsibility as individual believers For the Christian leader. That that is our responsibility as individual believers For the Christian leader today. That's trying to juggle some of these things right. They understand that that's what people are yearning for and desiring their church to be, but they themselves can sometimes struggle to engage as evangelists or to engage as disciple makers. Gosh, that's a hard place for leaders today, man.
Speaker 3:I believe the church is at a crossroads, if you want, at a moment in time where we have this amazing opportunity to do this, to transform the church. I like it that, and we keep going back to 2020 and COVID. But COVID forced a reset in many ways, and a lot of people realized there are different ways of being a church and also realized there were some things that we were doing that were just that were just not not necessarily working anymore. Yeah, um, and we you talked about the social justice and the fact that people people understand what needs to be done, uh, but they're less prepared or even less willing to do it themselves. Yeah, because we've, um, and we've we've talked about that off camera a little bit about the model of church that was given to us. Let's say that, sure, even my generation If you talk about generations, I'm a baby boomer.
Speaker 3:You're a straight up millennial Straight in the middle man yeah, and so we were given a church that was it's terrible that we say it like that but it's a consumer model of Christianity. Sure, consumer model of Christianity. Sure, you know, we outsourced the mission and we became consumers of the faith, so we would come, sit down, receive and then go home and hopefully live a better life because of what we received. Live a better life because of what we received.
Speaker 2:That is so far from the Christianity that Jesus or the church that Jesus started. Yeah, I look at that and I can't help but reflect. It's so much less than the fullness that Christ desires for his people. I heard one pastor say it this way you could follow all the teachings of Jesus and your life would generally be better, and never have actually believed in the message that he delivered or your part in sharing that message with others. And so, as I reflect on that, I think the heart and the intent was in a good spot. Right, I mean we teach.
Speaker 2:I think the heart and the intent was in a good spot.
Speaker 2:Right, I mean we teach that effective Christian leaders need to be culturally relevant in the way that they reach out, in the way that they serve their communities, the larger body of Christ, in the way that they go about that message and work.
Speaker 2:And yet, as we teach culturally relevant evangelism, we help them understand that the methodology adapts, the message remains consistent and clear. There is unchanging truth in the midst of a very changing world, and I think sometimes we can feel that tension. Right, we seek to be so culturally relevant or another way maybe to put that would be attractional that we forget that we're calling people to join in with a very clear mission to make Christ known and the blessing that that brings See. I believe that there's a direct connection between making Christ known and seeing that transformational, you know social justice outcome that so many people long to see. In communities, believers and unbelievers can see pain, sorrow, suffering and long to see that transformed, long to see that redeemed and made new and the gospel is the hope made new and the gospel is the, the hope and and the message of the gospel and the invitation of the gospel is not only to be saved, that's right.
Speaker 3:It's not only to even, it's not only to just have your yourself transformed. You're self-transformed, and it may be where we've missed the mark is we made that incomplete invitation, because the invitation is also to join in the mission. That's right. So the invitation is to come and be saved, come and be transformed and then become an agent of transformation for others. And you know, fortunately we're. Throughout history, there's always been people and churches and movements and that, that, that focus on that. It's not that the entire church sure was was missing the point. So the the the good news is that we see now a generation that is not satisfied to be in the sidelines at all. Amen Wants to be part of the game. That's right. That's what we hear about Gen Z and I guess, even millennials to a certain point, where they value authenticity. Yes, and they want to be part of the solution.
Speaker 2:I think that's the key phrase as I reflect on just conversations among my peers. Right, and I was asked recently hey, how do we find that next generation of leaders, those next generation leaders, in our own churches, our own congregations? And I think, among the next generation is a deep longing and yearning for that authenticity, for that sincerity of faith. That really is the marriage of words and actions where I'm talking about this transformational hope that's found in Jesus on Sunday and on Monday. I'm still talking about it because it's still transformational, it is still the source of hope and in any conversation that I'm having, it is a fundamental part of it.
Speaker 2:Right, I can't tell about my life without telling about Christ in my life, and I think that's something that this next generation is really longing for is for that authenticity, sincerity and consistency of faith, belief, attitude, action all married together. And there is, with that longing, that yearning for authenticity and sincerity, a deep distrust of institutions, a deep distrust of hypocrisy, a deep distrust of facade, and so it requires more than the senior pastor of a church living it out for that next generation to look and go oh no, these people are real. Right, Not just that one person, but this is a group of people that are sincere in this faith, sincere and authentic in their followership of Jesus, and I see that manifest in the way that they interact in the community, in the way that they care for the hurting, the lowly and gosh. Isn't that a compelling view back to really the church? In Acts right, there was deep community and authenticity and action that every member in the body was partaking in.
Speaker 3:Yes, and we see a lot of signs of it. And, daniel, as you were talking, I felt the curiosity to ask you, because you represent a beautiful change that is happening in the church today that emphasizes authenticity, communion, but is a higher, is a high commitment kind of of of involvement. And so I want you to ask, I want to ask you two questions and I want you to to uh to answer, cause it's going to be very practical and very day to day Talk. Talk to me about your, uh, your espresso machine. Okay, so we're both coffee buffs huge coffee nerds.
Speaker 3:Actually I bought my espresso machine, just like yours, because I enjoyed the coffee from your machine. So I went and and and saved and hacked up points on my credit card. There you go and, went and got me one. But tell me, why do you have a fancy espresso machine in your home?
Speaker 2:Well, it was a decision my wife and I made. We enjoy good coffee and we have fun drinking that and it's something we share and enjoy together. But also we recognized that, hey, this would be a real key opportunity to reach the next generation, right, it's, um, I mean, how many meetings you know kind of classic American here. Uh, how many meetings do I have over coffee? Well, what if those coffees were being held in my home and suddenly I was able to invite people into a slightly more intimate context wherein we could talk um kind of real life stuff and move past, um, you know, uh, uh, kind of real life stuff and move past, you know, surface level professionalism to deeper things. And so we did.
Speaker 2:We bought that coffee machine and we kind of laughed because you know it was not inexpensive, but yet it feels like it's been one of the more meaningful ministry investments that my family has made, because we're able to invite people into our home to sit around, have coffee, share a meal and have those conversations take place in a context where they can see there is no facade here, there is no play act. I'm not on, this is me. There is no on and off, daniel, I'm just trying to be Daniel and my wife just trying to be Casey, and so we have seen that investment bear lots of kingdom fruit, as we love on folks.
Speaker 3:Well, see, that's where the authenticity and a little bit of the community comes in. So my second question, daniel, is about your church. I know you pastor a church, right, and where is your church?
Speaker 2:Great question, norval. So you know we've actually had my senior pastor, tommy Adams, on this podcast before. But my church meets in my home. We've got about 20, 26 that come to my home every Sunday for us to sit, for us to gather, you know, out of the fundamental belief that deep discipleship happens in the context of deep relationship, more than 15 minutes. We want to have a deep relationship that allows for genuine, you know, confrontation when that's needed, but also encouragement when that's deeply needed, and then to walk with people over a lifetime.
Speaker 2:When I read, I love Christian biography. When I read Christian biography, I read of these great leaders, these great men and women of faith of old. They had a consistent view that ministry was for a longer period of time and I think that longevity in faithfulness is something that, again, my generation longs for to see. Hey, did you lead for 50 or 60 years with integrity and consistency, man? How? What does that look like? There's so many.
Speaker 2:I heard a pastor one time say I look at my bookshelf and all the titles, you know all of the names written on there, and he said I can't help but look and go. There's the moral failure, there's the next collapse, like, and just kind of see all of those things, and I'm not saying that to disparage the church, but rather to call the church to awareness, to say, man, that longevity is born out of a context of deep relationships, open accountability, fellowship. That is close, not far. And so, to put it really simply, yeah, the church meets in my house, and if my wife and I are having an argument, it's pretty clear. You can't hide that when it's in the house, right, and so I can.
Speaker 2:I can have a brother or a sister who kind of says hey, how are you, how are things really Not surface like, how are we really? And then to be able to navigate that together. And so that's some of why we do that. And I'm not saying that that's and I don't mean to imply that's the only method, but I reflect on what I see in the global church and I think if my church can only be defined because of the incredible wealth that that the nation I happen to have been born in affords it, then I really want to make sure that I don't lose sight of essential elements of my church. There's going to be different cultural elements to every part of the body, and that's good, that's beautiful. I think that's the praise and glory of God, but I don't want to find myself missing out on core, essential elements of the body, and I think those smaller group contexts are really where that transformation is taking place.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, the reason I asked is because, now, if your church was the only one was like a phenomenon, it'd be great, we'd go there and do a case study, write a paper or something like that, but it isn't, yeah, um, it's by no means a rarity anymore in the world and, and, honestly, there are parts of the world where you and I serve yeah that we cannot explicitly mention in, in, in in a public setting like this, like a conversation we were having just this morning about working in a part of the world where Christianity is illegal, persecuted and with violence, where being a Christian carries a severe risk.
Speaker 3:That's right, and in places like that, churches look much more like your church than the megachurch around the corner with the stage lights and the smoke machine and 20-somethings playing reverend guitars there you go. That's an inside joke. For those who appreciate instruments and Norval.
Speaker 2:This kind of for me comes back to some other conversations we've had. And again, if you are the church that's blessed with all those things, praise God, use that for his glory. I'm just asking the question what can I learn from the global church? Can I learn from the global church and how can I come with an attitude of humility to those brothers and sisters who have a sincere faith and say, hey, teach me some things here and again? So many of them have a church context that does very much look like this and their faith looks very real and is very authentic and connects a very real faith with real, tangible fruit of that faith.
Speaker 2:And again, you know, with James I say, like you know, with the reformers I say we are justified by grace alone. And with James I say, you know, show me your faith through your works. Like there's this marriage that I want to hold, even in my own thinking. But as I look at those elements of the body of Christ that are persecuted, that are oppressed, yet they continue in the mission of God with great conviction, in zeal and joy, how Well, what is the context of that kind of a gathering? Because that's the kind of transformational gathering I want to be a part of every week because I need that, I need that encouragement, I need that kind of strengthening in my own faith. And, as a side note, what's interesting is what we are, we are.
Speaker 3:We are essentially saying that the church in the persecuted world, the church in the other side of the world, yeah, uh, needs to teach us.
Speaker 3:Yes they have help us do church better, and and so you know it's. It all boils down to relationships and to a word that, um, I love and and we talk a lot about is discipleship or disciple making, which is to help somebody. Discipleship or disciple making is I love John Mark Comer's way he puts it. He says apprentice to Jesus. So discipleship is being an apprentice to Jesus and helping somebody else be an apprentice to Jesus together with me in community. Like you said, it happens better around coffee, if you're like coffee, yeah. Around tea, if you like tea, yeah. If you're in Japan, it might be over a bowl of ramen.
Speaker 2:If you're in parts of Central Asia, it may be in a sauna.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes that's true, but it's being together and helping shape character. The Holy Spirit helps shape my character as I relate to somebody who helps me apprentice that's right and then I help somebody else apprentice.
Speaker 2:Well, and one of the things here, norval, that I love, trying to help people kind of see, I think that discipleship to Jesus, apprenticeship to Jesus, will bring as a fruit leadership like Jesus.
Speaker 2:Right, if leadership is influence and we all have influence in the lives of other people then there is some degree to which each of us has leadership. We have influence in the lives of some sphere of influence around us and we want to disciple and be discipled, apprentice and be apprenticed in such a way that it begins to reflect the same forms of leadership that Christ has. And that's why at ILI we do train and equip in eight core values, fundamental biblical principles that guide and direct Christian leadership to be Christ-like in character, such that it's not a leadership curriculum or experience or intensive that's devoid of deep discipleship, principles, values and assets. Because it is this kind of continuation in delineation, because as I look more like Jesus, I'll begin to lead in ways that are similar to him and I'll begin to kind of steward the influence I've been entrusted to glorify God and to accomplish the kingdom advancing work that he has uniquely called me to.
Speaker 3:We have been called. People have looked at our material and said this is discipleship. It's just a discipleship or an apprenticeship to Jesus. That points towards influence. That's right. That points towards influence. That's right. And, yes, we train leaders, but we are not selecting the top leaders. We're not going for pastors or company leaders or political leaders. We believe the mother who influences her three kids and, in an American context, influence five or six other kids that get in the van and they go to soccer practice or baseball or gymnastics if they're girls or swimming, but who now is influencing not only her kids but her kids' peers or playmates or something like that. That's leadership and that needs to be done with core values, to develop character in these, whatever, however many people that I influence as a person, as a mother, as a father or as a business or as a co-worker anywhere, and building the kingdom through this chain of people apprenticing and learning how to live, how to imitate Jesus, how to lead like Jesus, how to influence others the way he did.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think all of this ties back together, the church of the future needs to be a church where the whole body's engaged in the mission, because the outsider, the unbeliever, is going to be looking, saying is this just a program of you or is it a mission and view for the whole people?
Speaker 2:Is this a transformational message that you're peddling or is this something that these people are proclaiming about themselves? This was transformational and that's why I believe God is calling me to come in my life to equipping leaders, because it is the equipping of these leaders to discover their own God-given vision, mission and calling that will help the entire body to engage in the mission of God, the advancement of the kingdom, the message of Christ, his death, burial, resurrection, the teachings of Christ, so that the whole world would hear and know and then receive in that, that process of reconciliation that Christ is ultimately making between the broken world and himself and God, the Father. All of that coming together as individual members of the body are able to see, understand and fulfill their God-given vision and mission. And that's why equipping leaders is really fundamental to the future of the church, because the future church must be a church where it's not the mission of a few who are in professional ministry, but a mission of the entire people called out according to his purpose.
Speaker 3:Well, essentially, what we're saying is that the 21st century church needs to look like the first century church if it's going to succeed. Amen, and not only that. I'm I'm thinking that because the first century church was similar to the 21st century church in in in some places, in that it was persecuted. Um, the first and second, and even the first and second century church was persecuted, was violently attacked, and yet it responded with love and care, series of episodes just to describe the history of the church in the first couple centuries, where the Christians, like you said, helped widows and orphans and refugees and sick people and provided that, had that social involvement, that social responsibility that didn't come out of some ideology, just came out of being like Jesus.
Speaker 2:Well, and it wasn't transactional in the same way we can often see transactional relationships in the West. It was a sincere love, unstrings attached. Hey, I'm not doing this so that you'll hear this gospel message, right? I'm not serving you this meal and in exchange, you are going to now listen to my sermon. It was, hey, I'm doing this and I'm building a relationship with you, and as I build that relationship with you, I will earn the privilege to share that and I'm not going to not share it, I'm not going to withhold it, because I can't be in relationship with you without sharing this, because it's part of who I am.
Speaker 2:It was, it was a transformational church, and I think that's why we saw such transformational things happening. Now I want to kind of caveat all of that is in through and with the power of God in their midst right, the Holy Spirit's active presence in them and through them. And so I do think that in our world today, we have to continue to live relationally with the Spirit of God and with the people that God places around us, so that we can begin to see that transformation work through us in our community.
Speaker 3:Absolutely that transformation work through us, in our community. Absolutely, and it is possible and it's great to see it happening in so many places Amen, and as an organization and as a movement, to be a part of it. Yeah, man, yeah, that's something that we said in another episode that we get the privilege of walking with these people that are really, really, really making a transformational difference in their communities, where revival is happening, where the power like you said, the Spirit of God is moving, where people are being healed, people are being transformed, but also people are learning how to live like Jesus and, as it's inevitable, if you learn how to live like Jesus, you learn how to help others live like Jesus as well. Those things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust them to faithful men and women, who will then also teach others. That's what Paul said to Timothy, his disciple and friend.
Speaker 2:His son in the faith. Well, norval, what an incredible encouragement. Thanks for helping to kind of think through this a little with us. I think the future of the church is bright because the son himself is the head of it. And praise God, he is risen and he is reigning on high and listen. If you're out there in the world, I just want to encourage you. God is active and at work. I mean, we have seen the church across Latin America come alive in some incredible ways, taking hold of the vision and mission of God. We've seen how, across the persecuted and unreached parts of the church, his people are alive and seeking him out and working to proclaim the name of Christ. Even in the midst of difficult circumstances. Those kind of courageous, bold leaders are making a difference. Wherever you are in the world, just know God is at work in and around you and we certainly pray that this will be an encouragement to you and also a challenge as you seek to lead into the next generation.