ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Explore the transformative journey that is leadership. In each episode, we will dive deep into strategies, stories, insights, and the core values that shape and inspire effective Christian leaders who make an impact - all around the globe. Get ready to unlock your leadership potential.
When leaders are equipped, kingdom impact multiplies. Equipping leaders and spreading the Gospel. Let’s change history together!
This podcast is brought to you by the International Leadership Institute.
ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Ep. 53 | Leading Others in an Upside-Down Kingdom
In a world fractured by conflict, division, and injustice, what does it mean to lead with a kingdom mindset? In this deeply thoughtful episode, Daniel and Norival sit down to explore how Christian leaders can embody both the vertical reconciliation with God and the horizontal work of peace, justice, and restoration here on earth.
Drawing insights from a recent gathering of ILI Leaders, the Lausanne Covenant, and powerful stories of reconciliation from Africa and beyond, they unpack the essential truth: Leadership is service. True transformation happens when we model Christ’s "upside-down" kingdom — one where authority is exercised through humility, influence through service, and impact through sacrifice.
This conversation isn’t just for pastors and missionaries — it’s for business leaders, professionals, entrepreneurs, and changemakers across every sector. If you believe leadership can be a redemptive force, this episode will inspire you, challenge you, and equip you for the journey.
Tune in to discover how faithful leadership in every arena can ignite lasting change — and advance a kingdom that looks nothing like the world’s but everything like Jesus.
When you begin ILI training, you will discover how the Eight Core Values will lead to the Seven Outcomes in your life and the lives of those you lead. Join a community of leaders who are ready to change history and make an impact in this world. Discover more at ILITeam.org/connect.
When you begin ILI training, you will discover how the Eight Core Values will lead to the Seven Outcomes in your life and the lives of those you lead. Join a community of leaders who are ready to change history and make an impact in this world. Discover more at ILITeam.org/connect.
Welcome to the History Makers Leadership Podcast, where we explore the transformative journey that is leadership. Each episode, we will dive deep into strategies, stories, insights and the core values that shape and inspire effective Christian leaders who make an impact all around the globe. This podcast is brought to you by the International Leadership Institute. Now get ready to unlock your leadership potential and let's change history together.
Speaker 2:Hey and welcome to the History Makers Leadership Podcast. My name is Daniel and I'm excited again, norval, to sit with you and think a little bit. You know, recently we were at an event over in Malta and we were talking with some leaders and believers from the Middle East and there was something that was kind of brought up that I feel I keep hearing in echoes as I have conversations with Christian leaders, and it was really around this kind of concept in question For those leaders in the Middle East. They were talking about peace and justice as Christ embodied. Peace and justice, how that has a very natural vertical reality. Right, obviously, as Christians we talk about the gospel and we think of our salvation and reconciliation with God himself. But they were saying there's, rightly, a kind of a tension or a balance with where is that peace and justice in the world today? What is the church's responsibility or action to be a part of that today? And what I'd like to do is just kind of have a little bit of a conversation with you around this and I'll kind of frame us by just reading this from the Lausanne Covenant right, so there was a and maybe you can give us some more of the history here, but there was a group of believers that gathered in the 1970s and said hey, we want to have a clear statement around which we can co-labor for the evangelization, for the reaching of the world with the gospel of Christ, and this is article five from it.
Speaker 2:It says we affirm that God is both the creator and the judge of all men. We therefore should share his concern for justice and reconciliation throughout human society and for the liberation of men and women from every kind of oppression, because men and women are made in the image of God. Every person has an intrinsic dignity, because of which he or she should be respected and served, not exploited. Here too, we express with penance both our neglect and for having sometimes regarded evangelism and social concern as mutually exclusive, although reconciliation with other people is not reconciliation with God, nor a social action evangelism, nor is political um uh, liberalization, liberalization, salvation. Nevertheless, we affirm that evangelism and social, political involvement are both part of our Christian duty.
Speaker 2:There's this question about the Great Commission and this great joining in creation with God that began in Genesis and that Christ is in the midst of redeeming. You know, norval, how do you think through some of these things? I know I've just kind of put a lot out here for us. Maybe just start with what was some of the context for that article you think being written? And, as Christian leaders today, how do we make sure that we don't create a context where we're putting against each other evangelism and these social issues that we should be a?
Speaker 3:part of as well. Absolutely Great to be having this conversation and I honestly I really hope they are informative and and transformative for those who are participating with us. But, um, um, I was. I was um young when Luzon first one happened, but I was, but I was old enough to to know what was going on. I was already following Jesus and I was in my teenager years, in the early 70s, and that's when Billy Graham assembled a group of leaders in Lausanne, switzerland, to assess the state of global of world evangelization Okay, assess the state of global of world evangelization, okay and to try to get together to carve a some path forward, okay, um, another very important person for that was john stott yes uh, the late john stott, who was, uh, one of the most prominent theology theologians of of that age, of deeply evangelical man, but who hailed from a totally different tradition than than billy graham, okay, um, being uh from the church of england.
Speaker 3:Okay, so it was really it them coming together and then, of course, with, with their power of convocation, bringing the evangelical world together in what started a movement and I did two episodes here talking about Lausanne 4, which happened in Incheon, seoul, korea, south Korea, last year, and I had a privilege of attending representing ILI which happened in Incheon, seoul, korea, south Korea, last year, and I had a privilege of attending representing ILI and first of all, daniel, you realize 50 years later how relevant that statement still is.
Speaker 2:Man.
Speaker 3:So number one, that's such a relevant statement, so much so that the issue was brought up again at the Malta conference.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:Okay, and I think it's important for us to remember, just like I went back in time to 1974, to think that we are in 2024, when violence again erupted in Gazaaza yeah there's tensions in northern israel.
Speaker 3:Syria has fallen apart, yeah, in terms of state, ukraine and russia. Ukraine and russia continue at war and uh and with no possible and sight to any of these conflicts. And so a message of peace and reconciliation continues to be absolutely relevant, and I love that the writers of the Lausanne Covenants talked about penance, about having to repent from having had on the building of the kingdom through social justice, through advocacy, through serving the needy, the refugee, the immigrant, et cetera, et cetera. If you talk to the leaders of these movements, you will realize that that particular statement comes out of an interaction of evangelicals with mainline Protestants who were, at the time, proposing a theology of liberation.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:As it was proposed, in Latin America and where the liberation, the social and political liberation and we have to say, unfortunately, where we disagree with it, with a lot of Marxist overtones to it, but it was seen as the liberation of the oppressed, as the establishment of the kingdom of God and as the gospel.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:And so, while evangelicals would not consider, like you said, and the statement says, the liberation of the oppressed is not the gospel, therefore, but however, we realize it is part of the establishment of the kingdom of God. That's right. We realize it is part of the establishment of the kingdom of God, that's right, and therefore it should be the church's responsibility.
Speaker 2:You know, I find it so interesting because I wasn't even thinking about those elements and I was thankful you brought them up, because you do. You knew some of the history and elements there and I certainly remember learning some of those things. But I was having similar conversations with Christian business leaders, right, who are trying to navigate this question of you know, gosh, god, are you like when the fall happened? Prior to the fall, we are given the gift and calling and privilege of vocation in the garden of stewarding God's creation, of being a part of that creative process. We get to name the animals and all those things, right, and when they see themselves leading businesses, these Christian business leaders are saying, no, this is an extension of my God-given calling and vocation. You know, they look at the examples from Exodus, where certain people are given the gift from the Spirit of God to make things out of gold or bronze and helping to build the temple and helping to or build the tabernacle, rather, and so they're looking at this going.
Speaker 2:Wait a second.
Speaker 2:In Christ now we not only have reconciled relationship with God, but, god, you're in the process of reconciling the whole of creation, and so I have some opportunity to play a part in that process and it gives them very much these bold views for saying wait a minute, we get to transform the world and be a part of God doing some of that work, but there's a right, I think, balance intention to that.
Speaker 2:That has to be like it's the coming of the kingdom that ultimately produces those things, and that coming kingdom well necessarily includes the message that you know, gosh, we stood as enemies of God and yet he, in his love and grace to us, sent his own son to die on our behalf and take the punishment for our sin that we might be made whole and right with him and initiate the coming of his kingdom. So how have you tried to navigate that with Christian leaders who are asking that question of like is the kingdom work that God has called me to? Is it less valuable because I don't get to see the number of salvations at the end of the tally? How do you help to navigate that with a Christian leader?
Speaker 3:Well, first of all, when we talk about the kingdom of God and the work of the message of the gospel and the work of Jesus, the Christ, you know, to salvation, one expression that has become very part of my vocabulary recently is upside down, that idea that this, the kingdom, is an upside down way of life, of being and living and ruling through serving. Yeah, yeah, you know. So that very much frames my view of the kingdom of God. I have to say there is a part of Christianity today that talks about the kingdom. There is a part of Christianity today that talks about the kingdom, but right side up, which is a kingdom where we rule. Yeah, you know, we're the rulers, we're the owners and we're you know, yes, we are called to rule in the kingdom of God. But the ruling is upside down, right, it's through serving, and that's where a business or a professional can see themselves as serving through serving others. They actually build the kingdom through their business.
Speaker 3:Um, I love to, to, to look at companies that where their, their, their mission statement or their purpose statement is not to make money or to sell a product, but it is to serve and and and they serve through selling a product, they serve through working in the negotiation price value, market value and all of that which brings in then money. But it is a different way of looking at business, I think, traditionally, professionals in business only see their either they are evangelizing or they're giving money. Right, right, like what you like to say when we're talking about our partners at ili. Ili being a non-profit right right that is crowdfunded and survives because of of of the donations that we receive, that we don't treat those people as a cash cow, as a an atm, is what you say. Right, um, you're, we want to serve them, not only well, the same thing, uh, could be said of businesses you know, they don't.
Speaker 3:If it's, it's looking at your client, not as the guy who's going to get my product and give me the the money that I need to for the company to survive and for me to right get richer, uh, but it is a service that I am providing. That interaction in and of itself is an act of service and therefore is an act of love and therefore is an act of building the kingdom.
Speaker 2:I think you're so right. There's again that upside down kingdom, you know and I could go on a tangent about, you know, I think it was Von Mises shareholder value and the idea in the late 70s about or I guess it was the 60s, 70s, 80s about the chief purpose of a business to be to create shareholder value and those kinds of things. And, gosh, there are great leaders who are talking and kind of rebutting some of that even now. Right, unbelievers, right, simon Sinek and some others, saying wait a second, no, your business has to have a higher purpose, calling thing beyond that. And I think that's really where Christian business leaders and marketplace leaders who hold the faith have a better answer. Right, they have a more genuine, sustaining response to that.
Speaker 2:But when it comes to this concept of an upside-down kingdom and we talk about reconciliation, we talk about those elements. You know Bishop David de Gaulle well in some of the work that he and his team have done, thinking through reconciliation, thinking through peace and those kinds of things. How much do you know about that story? I mean, is there some elements of that? Because I know he cares deeply for the gospel? Right, he's our national leader for East and Southern Africa. Tell us a little bit of what you know from that.
Speaker 3:Well, I actually took part in some of that some of that process, because in let's see 2000 and I think 13 or something like that. Yeah, many years ago there was a spout of violence in Kenya after an election tribal violence and people died. Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:And we had an event scheduled for that month, but the country was so traumatized by the violence that our event that we were going to meet and plan and make plans for ILI turned into a, a, a almost therapeutic uh retreat where people could actually vent their, their uh, their, their sadness and their traumas, and I heard things that I never thought I'd hear in my life wow, and and and. The interesting thing about that is that in a few years earlier, goa, the church that Bishop David Munirithagana is the leader, had heard and felt the tug of the Holy Spirit to work in peace and reconciliation, particularly in Burundi and in Rwanda where the genocides had happened, and all of that.
Speaker 2:Lots of need for that.
Speaker 3:Well, what happened was they were, when the violence happened, in their own backyard or actually to themselves. They were uniquely equipped because they had experienced that forgiveness, healing of emotional wounds, of being a victim of violence or being a perpetrator, for that matter. I mean, sure, yeah. And so they were uniquely prepared and it was so incredible that they ended up gaining national projection on secular media because of the work that they were doing to help with the peace and reconciliation. To me, that was a clear demonstration. Nobody was preaching Jesus explicitly, though they were. Oh, sure, yeah. The purpose of all of that was not to preach that. Jesus is God's way of reconciling us to him. It was actually living that reconciliation in helping people navigate their own traumas and unforgiveness, and their own and the violence that had happened. That was horrible, that was really terrible, and that was a way in which, all of a sudden, the kingdom of God, the values of the kingdom of God, were, were what the people needed at that moment, and I believe they built the kingdom definitely.
Speaker 2:You know, I can't help but hear that and think that sounds like good news to a hurting people, right, that ability for those teams, those GOA teams, Glory Outreach Assembly, for them to be able to step in and to serve, to answer hard questions, the way that God used them previously, right in these other nations, among these other peoples, where again, suddenly the church, right, the body of Christ, is standing in that gap to help be a leader in reconciliation and peace and creating those contexts. I know David Joel, one of our friends and co-laborers out in Joss, Nigeria, similarly does a lot with peace and reconciliation. I think he even did some of his doctoral work on that topic but seeking to create a context where the church and the believers of the church are positioned to respond to those needs. And I think that's where, you know, when we talk about equipping Christian leaders, right, we talk about visionary leadership, we talk about seeing the need and feeling the need, and that's what David did, right, he you mentioned the Holy Spirit kind of moved on his heart, he was listening, he was walking in an intimate relationship with God so that he could hear God. You're telling me to kind of do this prep work. You're telling me to step into this space and then, as soon as that need came, he was able to respond to it.
Speaker 2:And seeing the need doesn't mean that there's a one size fits all solution. It means that God's working out that solution and it's our, it's our, you know, walking with him that helps us to identify that and kind of work that out in that process. And, um, along the way, uh, we know that, obviously we, you know Christ. We'll look at the example of Christ. Right, he did lots of physical healing in his earthly ministry and in the midst of those things he was working out spiritual healing for them as well. He was meeting them in both spaces and I'm sure if Bishop David were here we could ask him and he would have the answer to many stories of where spiritual healing and reconciliation was taking place as well. But it wasn't at the neglect of the healing and the reconciliation that was needed among the people in that moment Exactly.
Speaker 3:And that is if we could go back to the Lausanne document.
Speaker 3:That's exactly what the Lausanne document addresses.
Speaker 3:Document, yeah, that's exactly what the lausanne document addresses is that evangelicals didn't want, didn't want to continue having that dichotomy, that separation, where your, your gospel, spiritual jesus, is one thing and your social action is something separate. And I think as a church we have grown into that. We are still a ways to go, but I believe we have a much more holistic view today and the way I grew and the way I served God through all of my life, to have this unified vision where and remember, I was a medical doctor on the mission field, you know, treating people physically, to see that the hundred or so patients that I saw every day at the clinic were as much gospel work as the conversations that my assistant nurse had, who had a tremendous gift of evangelism had with, with people. Um, she was one of those people that we'd we'd send somebody to her and then we'd look and all of a sudden we'd seen, you know, tears and handkerchiefs coming out because sure enough uh she was she was bringing, taking somebody to the feet of Jesus.
Speaker 3:One wasn't more gospel than the other, and and that's, that's, that's what that Lausanne document does, and I believe that applies to business as well.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Evangelism and business. One is not more gospel than the others, it's the two of them together. It's us living, doing life and following Jesus in the context of whatever is it that we're doing that is going to be attractional for those who need Jesus, who need to hear about, they need to look at it and say wait a minute. The way this guy does business is unique. What is it about him? The way this doctor treats his or her patients is unique.
Speaker 1:What is about it?
Speaker 3:Then the conversation can move forward.
Speaker 2:Man Norval, I love that we're able to have this conversation because I think you're right, I think the church has probably gotten a little better from that day and time. It really answers for me a fundamental, you know. It's a good reminder for me. Why do we train leaders? Well, because God has called Christian men and women to lead across every sector of society and we want to give a solid biblical framework for Christian leadership that's applicable across those segments of society and it's not just hey, how do I go out? And you know we're not just an exclusively evangelistic training organization. We teach evangelism, right, because we believe in culturally relevant evangelism and we have a deep passion for the harvest, right, those are core values that we teach.
Speaker 2:But it is asking that question how do Christian leaders across all elements of society lead in such a way that causes the kind of transformational thy kingdom come, thy will be none reality to come to bear. And it's in every element of that. That's why we talk about, when we look at and celebrate God, what is the work you're doing? We talk about the needs of the hurting people being met right and we talk about lives being transformed because, as people encounter Christ, christians or the organizations that Christians lead. It should be a transformational encounter where they go wow, I walked away from this not just I didn't walk away from it feeling exploited and I didn't just walk away feeling I got a good deal. I felt like they sacrificed for me because that's the example of Christ.
Speaker 2:Right, that's that kind of upside down kingdom that you're talking about is wait a second, the guy who's leading this is washing the feet. Wait a second. This business that in some contexts is exploitative, they're sacrificing on my behalf. How does that work right? Or this pastor who preaches in front of 8,000 or 10,000 or 400,000 is sitting and having a conversation with me. It's because we have that kind of Christ-like humility and Christian attitude that says wait a second. This gospel, this good news, this kingdom, it's vertical and it's horizontal because he's healing and bringing a wholeness and a redeeming to all of those elements. Yeah, man, I'm so thankful we get to serve leaders across every element of that.
Speaker 3:Amen to that. Amen to that, daniel. It is such a privilege to see men and women who are doing the same thing, who are living this life and building this upside-down kingdom from the cold north to the hot equator that's right To the cold south To the cold south. That hot equator, that's right To the cold, south To the cold south.
Speaker 2:That's it, that's it.
Speaker 2:Well, hey, if you're a Christian leader out there that is looking for that kind of movement and that kind of community, I want to invite you. The International Leadership Institute has teams in more than 100 nations of the world and we are blessed to be able to serve alongside them. We've got resources in more than 60 languages and we want to be able to help serve, equip and mobilize you to be a kingdom gospel messenger, one who is proclaiming the vertical reconciliation and the horizontal reconciliation, doing it all, and so, if that's something that's interesting to you, I want you to go to iliteamorg. Reach out to us there. We want to connect, we want to serve you. I want you to go to iliteamorg. Reach out to us there. We want to connect, we want to serve you, we want to equip you with the core values of the most faithful and effective Christian leaders, because we believe that when that happens, the gospel will accelerate, the kingdom will advance and God will be glorified. Thanks so much for listening and being a part today.