ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Explore the transformative journey that is leadership. In each episode, we will dive deep into strategies, stories, insights, and the core values that shape and inspire effective Christian leaders who make an impact - all around the globe. Get ready to unlock your leadership potential.
When leaders are equipped, kingdom impact multiplies. Equipping leaders and spreading the Gospel. Let’s change history together!
This podcast is brought to you by the International Leadership Institute.
ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Ep. 52 | Evangelism in Resistant Cultures: Finding Open Doors
Have you ever tried sharing your faith only to be met with the reply, "I don't need to be saved"? That disarming response has stopped countless gospel conversations in their tracks. In this thought-provoking episode, Daniel and Norval Trindade tackle the challenging terrain of evangelism in resistant cultural contexts.
In this insightful episode of the History Makers Leadership Podcast, Daniel sits down with Norival Trindade to address one of the most pressing challenges facing Christian leaders today: how to approach evangelism in contexts where spiritual receptivity is low or seemingly absent.
From the secular settings of post-Christian societies to the unique dynamics of pre-Christian cultures, this episode unpacks real-world experiences and pastoral wisdom for navigating conversations about faith with grace, clarity, and courage. Whether you're ministering in your local community, leading in a cross-cultural mission, or simply trying to share your faith with a friend or colleague who “doesn’t need to be saved,” you’ll find this episode both practical and personally convicting.
Norival shares a pivotal early story from his days as a medical student in Brazil—a moment that shaped his lifelong commitment to evangelism—and opens the door to a raw, honest discussion about rejection, misunderstanding, and the quiet power of consistent witness.
When you begin ILI training, you will discover how the Eight Core Values will lead to the Seven Outcomes in your life and the lives of those you lead. Join a community of leaders who are ready to change history and make an impact in this world. Discover more at ILITeam.org/connect.
Welcome to the History Makers Leadership Podcast, where we explore the transformative journey that is leadership. Each episode, we will dive deep into strategies, stories, insights and the core values that shape and inspire effective Christian leaders who make an impact all around the globe. This podcast is brought to you by the International Leadership Institute. Now get ready to unlock your leadership potential and let's change history together.
Speaker 2:Hi and welcome to the History Makers Leadership Podcast. My name is Daniel and I'm joined today by Norval Tundaji. Listen, before we get started, I just want to say this If this is a resource that's helpful for you, or maybe it's a podcast or a video that you have watched and engaged with, I just want to ask would you mind liking subscribing, giving us some kind of feedback? We want to be able to serve Christian leaders, just like you, around the world, and we have the privilege of doing that in person in so many different contexts, and it's wonderful to be able to see them and engage and interact with them. One of the best ways that you can help us to serve you better is by doing that little like that subscribe, maybe, give it a comment or some feedback so that we can understand some of the context in which you're leading and some of the questions that you're facing. But, norval, it's been a while since you and I have had a chance to sit down together. It's good to be back with you, brother.
Speaker 3:Well, it's good to be back here in the studio. It's good to have again these conversations that they edify and help us and hopefully they edify and help the folks that watch us as well.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. You know, we were talking through and kind of thinking through what are some of the topics that we'd want to look at or kind of address today, and we kind of fell upon this question of what does evangelism look like in a context where maybe people are less welcome to it, maybe they don't see that they have a need for it, maybe it's a post-Christian context or a pre-Christian context where there's some elements to that sharing of the gospel that leads to some hesitancy. I was recently able to speak at an event in Texas and kind of talk to some folks, and you were recently in Japan working with some believers there, and so, as we kind of open this up together, what are some of your initial thoughts? How would you counsel a brother or sister who's leading in that kind of a context?
Speaker 3:Well, you know, daniel, this is almost like a lifelong question for me. I believe I was in my early 20s, a medical student in Brazil, and I had a female colleague that was one of my best friends. We studied together in groups a female colleague that was one of my best friends. We studied together in groups, we, we, we carpooled, you know, to, to go to, to uh, to school and um, and I've, I've made a commitment I'm going to share the message of jesus with her, and in one of the conversations I did, I said you know, jesus, this?
Speaker 3:And I explained to her how jesus had to save her, to forgive her and all of that. And it was funny, I was completely stomped when she turned around and says I don't need to be saved, you know, yeah, and I said, well, yes, you do. And we all, oh, no, I'm good, my life is good, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a, I'm a good person. You know what a lot of people do. She absolutely saw no need for salvation and I have to confess, I didn't know what to do.
Speaker 3:So, um, that conversation ended right there, without uh, without any progress in terms of me sharing the most important thing in my life with one of my best friends. And so yeah, and you said, I was in Japan. There is one of the perceptions about the reason why Japan is one of the most difficult countries for the gospel japan remains at less than one percent um of of evangelical christians, committed christians to this day, and there is no move. There is no, no movement towards conversion, towards christianity in japan. There is a lot of resistance and one of the things that I've read and observed is that japanese do not perceive towards conversion towards Christianity in Japan. There is a lot of resistance and one of the things that I've read and observed is that Japanese do not perceive a need because they love their culture, they love their way. It's like my friend, what do I?
Speaker 2:need Jesus for. Well, gosh, that creates a real tension, because I'm thinking of that context and I can just imagine sitting there and thinking to myself man, I want to be faithful. I also don't want to be offensive, like and you know, gosh, if I'm like, no, no, no, actually, you really need salvation because you know you, you stand without Christ as an enemy of God, like that man. That sounds harsh, it makes me sound so, uh, well, offensive, judgment, judgmental, yeah, judgmental even. And, gosh, what an incredible tension and what an incredible difficulty.
Speaker 2:Well, you've walked a little bit of your life and faith since that moment. I'd be curious what some of your thoughts are to a believer in that context, and I'll just say mine quickly. My first thought is I think the best thing to do is to understand that that absolutely comes from a position of sincere belief. Like, they actually think, no, I'm good, and it's simply because, well, you know, until you have some understanding of the standard to which we're expected, right, god's standard of holiness and perfection is well, just that, it's holy, it is set apart and until there's some right, loving understanding of that, gosh, we can't possibly see that we have that need, and I think it really has to begin with a listening ear just saying well, let me listen, tell me the story of your life. Who are you? What does it look like? I mean, I don't know, what would you? What is your initial thought?
Speaker 3:Well, you know what I've, what I've read and I've heard from people that that reach out to people of other faiths who might be satisfied with their faith, with their religion, with their allegiance to their God or gods and don't feel the need for a transformation. And don't feel the need for a transformation A lot of times. They say the best thing is you start with Jesus and you emphasize and focus on that relationship with Jesus and they will be receptive. And so through that, through framing it in terms of a relationship with jesus, in terms um, they will it you will be able to get to a point of confronting, because to be a relationship with a perfect Jesus is you can't help but confront your own flaws and sinfulness.
Speaker 3:You know, I think of it almost as remember Isaiah, the vision of Isaiah, where you know he says I was in the year that the king Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, and he sees God and it's so magnificent. And he says, uh, oh, you know, woe to me, I'm undone. I saw the Lord, I'm not going to survive this, and so and the angel comes and burns him and he purifies his lips.
Speaker 3:what I'm thinking is um with jesus, it's, it's the same process, maybe a little softer, because you're, you're, you're approaching um a man yeah who is god, who is perfect, and as you're confronted with his teachings and with his person and with who he really truly is, I believe that will lead. You cannot develop a relationship with the real Jesus, not some bumper sticker Jesus, but the real Jesus. At some point there has to be that realization. It'll be that realization that, yes, I need him because I am utterly unable, even as quote-unquote good a person as I am.
Speaker 2:I think you're right, norval. I think there's some elements of that and I can't help but think you know it is important, as a believer who's trying to be faithful, to share Christ with others, that we remember our responsibility isn't to produce the conviction or to be inherently the representative of the condemnation, be inherently the representative of the condemnation. Rather, it's to share and celebrate the love, forgiveness and grace that we have been given in such a way that they rightly see God as loving, good, gracious and as having right, holy, perfect expectation, and that those expectations do not come without a means of achieving them, namely Christ right, a means that he himself gave of himself to provide. You know one of our dear friends and leaders in India. He told it to me this way. He said Daniel, when we talk about Christ to people, it's less about being a salesman and more about being a satisfied customer, right, it's not about pitching Jesus to somebody as if we're trying to woo them or win them. Rather, it's simply proclaiming Christ.
Speaker 2:You have been radically transformational in my life, and when they ask, well, what is that transformation?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm not going to tell you that.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm not necessarily going to point out to all the sins, flaws, failures that you have, but I can gladly point to all of my sins, flaws and failures, because I am full of them and yet Christ has forgiven, redeemed and washed over me in those ways.
Speaker 2:And, uh, I think, I think that's you know, I don't know that's just an important part of that process to kind of avoid the I don't want to say avoid, but to help others uh, miss that obstacle, that, that um, that pitfall of becoming, um, well, just outright, openly, maybe even consternation, uh, you know, uh, just downright obstinate, difficult and offensive, right, um, again, I'm thinking of the faithful leader here who's going look, I want to help them see this, uh, but they just haven't quite got there yet. And I think one of the greatest ways is just to proclaim the goodness of Christ that you've endured and experienced, and that goodness isn't just to the blessings we've received, but it's also the forgiveness from our own failures. And I think it's in the midst of that that God would help us to see those things. It's in the midst of that that God would help us to see those things.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's interesting that I hear you talking and I'm thinking it's not about convincing people that Jesus is this or that, or the gospel is this or that. Every time we talk about Jesus and we're talking about sharing the gospel and the person of Jesus with those who are still lost, the idea it's Jesus in relationship to me, yes, it's Jesus in relationship to you, yes, it's Jesus and in relationship to humanity. In that sense, it doesn't become a proposition. There you go, right.
Speaker 2:Right, it becomes a story. It becomes a I mean to use the term a testimony, right, like this is what I'm here to testify about and it is. It's the story of what this relationship looks like in my life. And you know, yeah, there are elements to the following of Jesus that require the storytelling of who Jesus is, who he was, who he promises he'll return to be. But as we're introducing people to Jesus, I think that's right. I think it's constantly keeping it in that framework of who he is in my own life and I think one of the struggles that we face and maybe you'd agree, I don't know I think one of the struggles we face is so often I think the way in which, particularly in the West, we learn to share Jesus is we watch what's happening in the pulpit. Like that becomes our model and it's very instructional. It's very, you know, stand up, preach, teach, kind of a context. But gosh, when you're sitting, in your and ask for a show of hands.
Speaker 2:That's right. That's right. We ask for a show of hands and then we give them a practiced prayer. But, gosh, when you're sitting in the car talking to your friend, it's not you standing behind a pulpit preaching.
Speaker 3:Right. Talking to your friend. It's not you standing behind a pulpit preaching. You're having a conversation with a friend, and yet that's so often our experience on how to share the faith. It might have been what I did. I kind of preached a sermon to my friend in the car going to school and instead of letting my life speak and speaking about how I was an apprentice under Jesus, that's right. That's something that I've heard recently that I've used a lot about being a disciple of Jesus, being an apprentice to Jesus.
Speaker 2:Let me share this quick quote from Barna. Being an apprentice to Jesus, let me share this quick quote from Barna. It says, while it's understandable that a very common offering of churches, that is, a regular message from the pulpit, is seen as the primary medium for communicating about evangelism, barna has also observed that pastors may overestimate either the centrality or the impact of their own sermons. I think for Christian leaders listening today, gosh, that's a sobering reality. If I believe that I am discipling evangelism effectively purely and exclusively through my preaching and teaching from behind the pulpit, I might be missing something there. I mean, does that reflect true in your own observations? Just in?
Speaker 3:faith.
Speaker 2:We just said it this way he said, you know, daniel, we were talking through evangelism. And he said you know, I know a lot of different evangelistic programs or processes, he said, but I've never led somebody to the Lord through one of those.
Speaker 2:It's always been through those relationships. I even think of a wonderful gentleman and his wife. We've known them for a very long time. I love them dearly. They do not know the Lord and, again, that apprenticeship to Jesus kind of language is something that has recently become very intriguing to him. He understands, he has long observed my life and my wife's life, he's seen our family and he's seen the blessings of God in our family. And when I was talking I mean I've invited him to church a dozen times.
Speaker 2:We talk about Jesus fairly frequently but there was something new that caught his ear and I said, yeah, in our church we're just trying to understand who Jesus was, what he taught and how to live like that, how to apprentice to him in that kind of a way. And that was a very, again, kind of revolutionary idea. He goes well, hold on, I've heard some good things about this Jesus guy. He seems to be pretty good. I've watched you guys for a long time. Maybe there's something to that, and so I share that as a story just to say I think you're right. I think there's some, maybe some new in our culture in the post-Christian West. Maybe there's some new openness to rediscovering some of those things and saying you know more than anything else, I want an abiding relationship with this God-man whose name is Jesus. And here's what he said, here's what he's taught, here's what he looked like.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think you touched on something that we've talked before we started recording, which is that idea of understanding the culture. Yeah, yeah, we live in a post-Christian and I've heard somebody say post-post-Christian where people don't even have a framework anymore. They but they know about this Jesus person because at least in America it is still something that somebody that is mentioned, sure, he's quoted everywhere and people don't even know that they're doing it. And so I believe understanding where the culture is helps us to understand where people are. It's the other side of it. It's a little more technical, if you will, than just talking about the relationship and how I apprentice to Jesus. But how I apprentice to Jesus, how I follow Jesus in my story and the story of Jesus embedded in my story, I can be culturally insensitive and share it in a language that really won't be understood.
Speaker 2:It'll seem so foreign that people won't know what to do with it won't be understood, it'll seem so foreign that people won't know what to do with it. Well, you know you shared a little about this story of the peace child right and how this missionaries in this context where there wasn't really there wasn't a cultural understanding that could really be connected back to or at least there seemed to be not a cultural context that could kind of connect back to this gospel message, et cetera. Do you mind just kind of unpacking that a little bit, because I think it was a great example of where, how, listening to understand where that individual is coming from, the culture that they're coming from, the context that they're coming from, learning, walking with them and along with them and then helping them, you know, okay. So now that I understand where you are, now I see what that natural connection is to this story of Jesus, because I do think it's a part of the human story.
Speaker 3:Yeah well, I'll try to make it as succinctly as possible because it is a long story. But Don Richardson was a missionary in Papua New Guinea many, many years ago. This is all in a book, in his book, bestseller book which was even made into a movie called Peace Child. He went to share the message of Jesus with this people that lived in a Stone Age tribal situation.
Speaker 3:Okay, Violent constant bickering and wars between villages and tribes. Cannibalism, wow. And so he goes and preaches the message and when he is telling a story of jesus, he discovers that the highest value of this culture was deceit and treachery. And it's a it's a long story, but they actually their culture, culture valued deceiving somebody for a long time until you gained their confidence, and then you would kill them and eat them. Wow, they were cannibals.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:To get their energy and all that. It's a horrible story.
Speaker 2:That would seem like an impossible context to try and share.
Speaker 3:Well, much worse, because all of a sudden Judas becomes the hero of the Sowie people.
Speaker 2:This tribal people. So Don is telling them the story of Jesus, and because there's this cultural element that values treachery, right and deceit, they begin to see Judas as the hero of this story.
Speaker 3:Right. The gospel becomes about Judas. It's the gospel becomes about Judas. It's the Sowie hero. He betrayed Jesus so well. I mean, he walked with him three years and then betrayed him.
Speaker 3:Well, another circumstance within that violence situation was becoming untenable because they were fighting each other, they were killing each other uh, they were killing each other. And finally, under pressure to make peace, they assembled the different villages together and they did something that at first scared uh the daylight out of the, the missionaries, because one leader from one village went to the other village and picked up a child, a baby, snatched it from their mother's hands. And then another one came and snatched a baby from this village and they've exchanged a baby, and at first he thought they were going to murder the child. But no, they said no, this is the peace child. So long as this child from the other village lives in my village, we're at peace and we can't make war, they can't attack us, they can't do anything, and the worst thing that could happen is if they kill the peace child. That's what happens in in 20 years this child will be an adult. So if there's a war and if a, if a warrior from the other village kills this peace child. It'll be horrible, it'll be the ultimate uh act of treason and it will. So they don't make war, so that inadvertently they wouldn't kill the peace child.
Speaker 3:Well, don says okay, now let me tell you about god sending his peace child to the world to live among us. Wow, and it was interesting because then the psalmist said wait, judas be killed, the peace child. Yeah, he did so. All of a sudden, judas was no longer the hero, but jesus was the hero, because he was the peace child. That was the bridge to the gospel for that particular uh people.
Speaker 3:And the reason I brought up this story is because don richardson continues studying further into the future and studies cultures all over the world and realizes that there is in in we can't say in every culture, because there are thousands, but in in multiple cultures of the world there are identified items of their mythology, their lore or their customs or even their religion that are some small, some big bridges to the message of Jesus that will help them understand what God did and what Jesus did. God did and what Jesus did. And then, once they understand what Jesus did, they will be open to receiving the message of the gospel and becoming followers of Jesus and I was wondering about our own culture. Sometimes we think these things apply to tribal cultures in Papua New Guinea and in the ends of the world, but redemptive analogies in our own backyard.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I wonder.
Speaker 2:I mean Norval. I think there's something. There's just so many powerful things there. To your last point, I think you're right, man. If we're to be in the world, but not of the world, we must all be cross-cultural missionaries. And our cultural context, you know, yeah, it's changed in the post-Christian or post-post-Christian world to the extent that, yeah, there's going to have to be that acknowledgement. Wait, a second, god, you're working out these redemptive stories in the culture in which I live, in the context in which I live, and you know we serve leaders in all contexts of the world, and so it is.
Speaker 2:It's a matter of looking for those redemptive story arcs, asking God, how did you uniquely set this up? Because I got to imagine Don and his family were sitting there at some point going, god, there's just no way right. How on earth am I supposed to share the gospel faithfully, share this good news faithfully, in a context where treachery is celebrated? And you got to imagine there's some part of him that felt like a total failure. The moment everybody's sitting there going, well, judas is the hero. He's like wait, no, I failed to communicate the gospel even that way. No, I failed to communicate the gospel even that way. There has to be some degree where he was feeling those things. And yet, patience, faithfulness, steadfastness in listening, in hearing, in looking, god, where are you opening the door for this conversation to take place?
Speaker 2:And again, that's the difference between waiting for the open door or trying to bust down the door. If somebody comes to my house and just busts down the door, it doesn't matter if I know them or not. If you're busting down my door, I'm probably going to be a little anxious and apprehensive as to who are you and why are you bringing down my door. But if my door is positioned right, cracked and open because I know somebody's coming or I'm welcoming someone in, well, that doesn't surprise me at all. Or if I just know I have a guest who's coming and the door's closed, it doesn't concern me at all that they just walk in. In the same way, I think if we try to show up with this story of Jesus, this gospel story, this hope-filled, transformational story, and we just bust down somebody's door, we're putting them on their heels. They're going to be defensive door, we're putting them on their heels.
Speaker 2:They're going to be defensive, whereas if we wait for that open opportunity, gosh, it's going to be received with sweetness, kindness, and then we can faithfully be sharing the gospel without worrying about the offense that it's going to cause. Yeah man, what a beautiful story from Don, and that's a testament.
Speaker 3:It is a tremendous testament and we do, daniel, we do have the best story, we have the answer that we found for our lostness and our sinfulness and our brokenness, our brokenness and uh and, and he transformed our lives and he is shaping us and reshaping us to look like, uh, like jesus, yeah, and you know we want, we want to share that with with others, but we do need to be careful, we do need to be sensitive and um, and we need we, we do need to be sensitive and um, and we need we, we do need to be culturally appropriate and sensitive wherever we are Absolutely, and it's it's again.
Speaker 2:It's got to have at its root a motivation of love and a motivation that says I want to, I want to love and celebrate, um, and yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to tell you some of the hard things, but, uh, that's because I love you and it's because I'm celebrating the good news that comes from that. Overall, I love this conversation and I'm really thankful that we're able to have it. I'd love to have another conversation with you about the gospel and talking about its vertical, its horizontal, the various elements of it. We were in Malta together and a believer there said the phrase when we say that Jesus came as the Prince of Peace, there said the phrase you know, when we say that Jesus came as the Prince of Peace, that means a very different thing in the Middle East, and so I'd love to have a little conversation about that with you.
Speaker 3:Would you be open to?
Speaker 2:that? Oh, absolutely That'd be great.
Speaker 3:Awesome.
Speaker 2:Well, let's do that. Hey, listen, if this has served you well. We want to again say thank you so much. If there are ways that you're looking, as a leader in the body of Christ, to grow to be used by God faithfully, listen. The International Leadership Institute is here. We serve Christian leaders so that they can discover and fulfill their God-given mission and vision. We believe that the gospel accelerates when leaders are equipped. So let us serve you, equipping you with the eight core values of the most faithful Christian leaders. You can discover more. Connect with us and follow up with us at iliteamorg.