ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Explore the transformative journey that is leadership. In each episode, we will dive deep into strategies, stories, insights, and the core values that shape and inspire effective Christian leaders who make an impact - all around the globe. Get ready to unlock your leadership potential.
When leaders are equipped, kingdom impact multiplies. Equipping leaders and spreading the Gospel. Let’s change history together!
This podcast is brought to you by the International Leadership Institute.
ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Ep. 49 | The Balance: Abiding vs. Achieving
Is your spiritual journey as a leader starting to feel like climbing a corporate ladder? In this thought-provoking conversation, Daniel and Jason explore the tension between "abiding in Christ" and the progressive nature of Christian growth.
This dynamic tension touches every aspect of leadership - we're called both to rest and to advance, to be still and to move forward. The hosts wrestle with how Western culture has transformed faith into a transactional experience where achievement often overshadows authentic connection. The conversation shifts to vulnerability as a leadership strength. Rather than projecting perfection, Christian leaders who acknowledge failures create space for genuine grace. This authenticity directly counters misconceptions that Christianity requires lawlessness.
For leaders struggling with burnout or those mentoring others through spiritual formation, this episode offers practical wisdom on creating cultures of feedback and establishing expectations that foster growth without criticism. The profound insight that "deep discipleship happens in the context of deep relationship" serves as both a challenge and comfort to anyone in leadership.
Whether you're a pastor, business leader, parent, or simply someone seeking to follow Christ more authentically, this conversation will help you discern when to progress and when to simply abide in your spiritual journey.
When you begin ILI training, you will discover how the Eight Core Values will lead to the Seven Outcomes in your life and the lives of those you lead. Join a community of leaders who are ready to change history and make an impact in this world. Discover more at ILITeam.org/connect.
Welcome to the History Makers Leadership Podcast, where we explore the transformative journey that is leadership. Each episode, we will dive deep into strategies, stories, insights and the core values that shape and inspire effective Christian leaders who make an impact all around the globe. This podcast is brought to you by the International Leadership Institute. Now get ready to unlock your leadership potential and let's change history together.
Speaker 2:Hey, welcome back to the History Makers Leadership Podcast.
Speaker 2:Again, I'm Daniel and I'm really excited to be joined with Jason. Jason, as we were sitting and talking a few minutes ago, we were just kind of talking about life and some of the ministry things that you do and some of the secular leadership things that you do, but you said this phrase that just kind of hit my head. You talked about how, in the corporate context, you know, people are looking to kind of see the next rung on the ladder, right, they want to understand what is the professional journey that I am on in this corporate context, and you likened it to really a similar process in the church. And it just started resonating in my head because I went, you know what he's not wrong, right, like there's rungs on this journey and there's steps on this journey that people are supposed to take, are taking, will take, and I was struck with a scripture that God's really been challenging me on, which Jesus said hey, abide in me.
Speaker 2:How do I go on a journey and abide man. That's really good. You know what I'm saying. What's that tension there? Why am I feeling a tension there? Help me unpack this together.
Speaker 3:No, I think you're right, yeah, and I want to challenge kind of my own thought for a second, because, while I do think it's true we are encouraging people in an evangelism sense, look, if you don't know Jesus, there's things you need to do there's a step you need to take. Like you need to receive this gift from Jesus, like he wants to have a relationship with you. And I think about my church leadership role. Right, we've got people that want to serve in different capacities.
Speaker 3:They want to be on the stage, or they want to keep kids, or they want to do things, but you know they're they're living with someone who's not, they're not married to right, or they're they're doing. You know they've got something that they've shared with us. We know whatever the case is and we're like look, there's a step you need to take. We want you to have this role, we want you to lead and influence, but we want to see that done in a God-honoring way and not have you ever be in a position where that's challenged. Right? So there is this idea of progressiveness, but at the same time, there's not levels of Christianity. Right, you know, you're not like a senior director Christian right.
Speaker 3:Right, and this person's the new, new, new person that's like under you, right? So we've got to guard against that for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I you know I, and yeah, we do have to guard against that. I think the reality is, a lot of times we miss it though, man, well, like, oh, you know you're in missions, oh well, that's cause you must be double holy or you're the, you're the lead pastor. Therefore, uh, you know, you must have some, you know, uber unique fill in the blank, spiritual maturity or anything of the sort. And I do think, you know, yeah, as we grow and we would certainly the scriptures tell us, right, the older teach the younger. Right, like there's, there should be a growth in progression, growth in progression.
Speaker 2:But I guess, where my heart just worried, I feel so often the elements of my Christ, which is my culture, not the elements of my Christ, which is scriptural right, because I get the chance to engage with so many believers from around the world.
Speaker 2:It's a beautiful gift and a challenge to my faith to say wait a second. Your culture, you know you're following Christ genuinely, authentically, and there's a difference between you and I, and I begin to reflect and go, wait a second. This is a reflection of my culture in me, and our culture is really transactional. Our culture is really, you know, we're trying to achieve, attain, reach, and I just, I don't know, there's a part of me that's asking I should be growing in my walk with Christ and that growth happens through abiding. So, like I don't know, I feel like there's some tensions in what that looks like. But at the same time, like you just said, we've got to hold accountable right. There's got to be accountability, there's got to be correction if we know that something's going on. So I mean, do you think I'm just off?
Speaker 3:my rocker here Like am I seeing something?
Speaker 3:that's true out there You're right on, and I want to highlight that the word transactional right. I mean there is so much in a secular work environment where you're being measured on your performance constantly. You've got this career map. There's software out there for it, right, like what's the next role that I want? What skill gap do I have? How do I go get mentored in that? And there's this progressive.
Speaker 3:It's hard managing people because I end up trying to say, all right, well, I need at least 80% of the time on the job you have now. You know, if you want to spend 20% on the next job, that's great and I guess I need to support you in that. But I really need you here. But that transactional nature how often do you go to coffee or breakfast or whatever with a fellow believer and you get in and you got things going, and they say, well, you know, I'm glad we're here. What I really wanted to say was right, and they landed on you. What I really wanted to say was right and they landed on you. We want you to serve here, we want you to do more, we want you to give more. How crazy would it be just to go get coffee and and you know they, they're probably waiting on this transaction. Where's the transaction? And it just never comes. And you're just like I just loved you. I just wanted to sit here and have coffee with you, you know this is pretty pleasant.
Speaker 2:I think it's again just as a testimony of the need of that. I called a longtime friend of the ministry of ILI and picked up the phone and I said hey, you know, joe, just making up a name here. Hey Joe, I'm just calling to check on you to pray with you. How can I pray for you? And we talked for a little bit. When we finished praying he said you know, I've been a believer for 50 years and I've never had somebody just call just to pray. Yeah, no other agenda. How did we get here, man?
Speaker 3:It's, I think, like you said, it's the secular, cultural things just kind of creeping in and they don't seem inherently bad and we kind of adopt them in the church and we do that. You know a pastor I listened to. He said you know that that same passage on abiding talks about the vine being connected. He's like I went to a vineyard. You know what I didn't hear? I didn't hear any of the vines groaning, you know, like they weren't struggling to grow, they weren't like pressing ahead, they were just connected.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, the vine is grown as a byproduct of being attached, of being well-watered and nurtured, of sitting in the sunlight above it, and I don't know, there's a—look. I think that there is a undercurrent of complacency and satisfaction and mediocrity that exists in the post Christian church, uh, uh, that that we live and serve in. And yet I feel like there's some sense of uh, energy toward an unholy urgency or a broken sense of urgency that that is missing, that that that same Lord who says peace, be still cease striving. You know, abide in me as I am in the father, and like that that's a. It come and rest in me and I will bear the fruit that I I don't know.
Speaker 2:When I think of the Christian burnout culture and you know, we're coming out of this season and we're still kind of in a season where the vast majority of pastors here in the United States have either recently or are about to consider leaving the ministry altogether man, like I don't know, I just I feel that tension and I'm wondering what do we do about it? Like, how do we, how do we help to disciple on those practices without feeding complacency and mediocrity in the body?
Speaker 3:Right? No, I think that's. That's the challenge. You know, we we talked before about being just more forward with the gospel message, you know, not having it be just some subtle part of your character. So, as a church leader, how do we instill that in our church members, in our body, so when they go out into the community, that they're not just subtly being nice people that hopefully impact somebody through being so nice and smiling a lot, that hopefully impacts somebody through being so nice and smiling a lot, but at the same time, you know being.
Speaker 3:You know as it says in the word, you know wise as a serpent, innocent as doves. How do you use the place that you have strategically within the boundaries of your work environment, right? Not, you know, of course, not sinning or whatever, but getting to the point where you inject your faith and Jesus into the conversation in a very real. You're abiding, right. Your character's already telling the story, your testimony's already being demonstrated, right, but in that abiding, it's not that sense of urgency that you know it's up to me, but letting God use what does come out of your mouth for him, intentionally, with him, and allowing that to be the light that you bring to your workplace.
Speaker 2:I think you're onto something and it ultimately comes down to something that isn't radical or a new thought. Following Jesus means following him all the time, with all of me. It is following right, so as much as it's abiding, right. He told the apostles follow me right. So there's some sense of followership, you know, in in attitude, action, belief, et cetera. When somebody asks me why I make a choice was a follower of Jesus, he's got to be somewhere. He's got to be somewhere in that. Why and that is a natural expression right, I wouldn't go to a statue and immediately know who that statue was if there wasn't a plaque. Right?
Speaker 2:Similarly, I may have the character or integrity or behaviors that are Christ-like, right, and that's just assuming I do, right, I mean there's plenty of times where we don't, but assuming I do. If I don't make that open proclamation or that open statement when it's needed, how it's needed, they may never get that final kind of you know mile. And we know that God offers, you know, the scriptures as special revelation and all of his creation as general revelation. We know that our attitudes and actions can be a general statement, but he's called us to be his ambassadors. Right, to go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, son, holy Spirit and lo, in that action he promises to be with us. I know sometimes in ministry conversation, just loving folks, they'll say you know, gosh, I feel like Jesus is. So far I'm going well. Here's one place he's promised he'll be so if I want to see Jesus like.
Speaker 2:let me be a part of that and I'll guarantee myself his presence in the midst of that. I don't know. I mean, that's just kind of some of the stuff I'm wrestling with. I'm trying to think through it. It is.
Speaker 3:Now you mentioned this plaque right on the statue and I do think we're in the church, we need to be encouraging people into the spiritual disciplines out of sin and progressing on that, because a lot of them and I would I would, you know I don't know if there's a yet this or not the reason that evangelism by the individual in the workplace is maybe struggling, because a lot of people's plaque says a whole lot of things right, and this has been true of me in Seasons of Life. You know, I knew that if I shared the gospel, after the six months of complaining or grumbling that I had done that, there was a potential for some damage to be done there I'm attaching Jesus' work to just a really poor representation of Him that I've been bringing to the workplace, and so you've got to be aware of that.
Speaker 3:And I needed to progress in my discipleship, in my followership, so that my life and my character lined up with what I needed to say in sharing the gospel.
Speaker 2:You know, and I think that's, I think you're right, I think that that's so true. There can be those moments where we miss that, but I want to encourage you, brother, for what it's worth I have found when I have failed to demonstrate Christ in front of an unbeliever, that's a friend. And I say, hey, man, this isn't who I'm like, this isn't who I want to be, this isn't the person that I claim to serve. And you know that, you know who I am and you know that that behavior, that action, that attitude was not right and I owe you an apology because that's not who I'm trying to be and that's not who I'm trying to represent. And, man, the bridge that that can take. You know, gosh, I don't feel like we live in an apology culture, right? Not one that genuinely says, hey, this is the higher standard to which I am seeking to strive and I'm going to have some sincerity in saying man, I fell short, to have some sincerity in saying man, I fell short, especially when, at least in my opinion, our culture so often portrays Christians in a totally hypocritical fashion. Right, we're just constantly kind of put in that category.
Speaker 2:But I think, acknowledging, owning and confronting that head on you know, again, some of my time in the marketplace was in restaurants and I'll never forget one of my bosses, jeff. He told me. He said, daniel, when you quote a time to a table, when they come in you tell them it's going to be 10 minutes. When it's five minutes, they're already looking at their watch, thinking it's been 10. And if you don't go tell them ahead of time, they're going to make a whole story in their mind. They're going to write the whole story as to why everything's behind and not going well. And he said, no, you got to confront it ahead of time. And I think it's the same when it comes to when we make little errors or mistakes or or just fail to represent Christ the way we intend. Hey guys, off the handle. That's what we do with our kids right, that's great advice.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was thinking about parenting, as you were saying. That I mean. But in doing that and in sort of demonstrating that, that posture of repentance not what, what word they would ascribe to it right, if they're not not in the church world, but in demonstrating that, in opening up and allowing them to see that pattern of grace, right and forgiveness and reconciliation and renewed spirit towards you know, doing it the way that you should have been doing it all along, then that opens it up. I think it was Donald Miller he talks about. You know, in relationship, if I didn't have any faults, it wouldn't give you any opportunity to demonstrate grace, right. And so that pattern of the problems and the things that we mess up and the reciprocal grace that's given by the other person, that's what builds the relationship. And you can do that in the workplace with an unbeliever and then that's maybe one of the things that sort of drives them towards Jesus' message for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah and that's beautiful. You know, yeah, the false perception that, well, if I'm perfect, or if this thing is perfect, that's the best solution. You know, gosh, I think if that were the best solution, we would live in that kind of a world. But we don't live in that kind of world. God has a different world that he has given us, and we know that that's impacted by the consequence of sin, and you know all that. It wrecked in that process.
Speaker 2:But the beauty is that he, the whole story is that he's redeeming it all. Right, you know, the cross doesn't just redeem our souls, it actually is the initiating, fulfilling, completing act of the whole story of redemption. Right, when Adam and Eve sinned, they broke not just their relationship with God, but all of creation. God's in the process of redeeming all of that via the cross and via his people, and so I think that's just such a good message for leaders today. For me today is hey, don't shy away from acknowledging that, because it does. It gives them a chance to live out the grace that God wants in them.
Speaker 3:It's a direct sort of common sense argument to the misconception that Christianity is about being perfect. Right, and that's what the world throws at us. Right, oh, you're a Christian, you never do anything. You think you never do anything bad or whatever. Right, so being able to say I actually did, I failed in this way and that way, and I want to apologize and I want you to, you know, hold me accountable. I mean that there's no better sort of counter argument to the misunderstanding that Christianity sets itself forth as perfect people. Right, and you mentioned the parenting. That's exactly where I was thinking about. That's modeled in our home. How many times have I gone to our kids and said hey, man, really, really didn't do that. Right, as your dad, right, need your forgiveness. And that opens the door for them to do the same thing, and I think that's one of the most beautiful blessings of parenting.
Speaker 2:I'll never forget the first time I said something to my oldest son. It was like the Holy Spirit just said do you hear yourself? Because I'm saying it to you too.
Speaker 2:And I was like oh no, it was just so, so convicting to my soul. Um, so I, I'm sitting here thinking, okay, God, you're, you're, you're helping us to narrate and navigate this conversation. Um, I started in my mind with this question of are we just trying to achieve the next thing? Are we treating our walk with Christ so purely transactional and here we are talking about living out grace? What's the connection here? How did we end up in that space? I mean, am I fighting an internal legalism here? What do you think is going on in my head? Because I don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I think it's like so many things in Christianity it's already not yet Like there's a tension there that you have to kind of be comfortable letting God work out. I mean, in some respects you're absolutely trying to progress, in other respects you absolutely need to abide, you need to slow down, you need to rest in Christ. I think that's just one of those areas that, in just acknowledging that there is a tension there and that there needs to be further investigating, you know, god's drawing us into Scripture, god's drawing us into conversation and in relationship, and that's where a lot of value is Well and gosh, what a valuable message for leaders today.
Speaker 2:Because here's what I'm hearing. I'm hearing two primary things. Number one, the answer for you may not be the answer for me. Right now, I may be in a season of abiding, right, our family's going through some hard things and some other things. And he's just saying, hey, rest, rest. And for someone else listening it might be, um, and, and I think this is the beauty, right, we know that Christian leaders are going to be multiplying leaders, right?
Speaker 2:Uh, the church has historically called this discipleship, so it's a discipleship relationship with a, a believer, who's walking alongside you. It goes, hey, man, I'm going to help. You see which end of that pendulum you're? You're swinging, maybe a little right. Or you know this season of life, or whatever phrase we want to use. You know you have slipped into, you know, a works-based salvation or a works-based mentality, or a transactional relationship with Christ. Or, hey, man, you're slipping into complacency, mediocrity. You're not, you're stuck satisfied on milk when you've been called to take the weight of your things in, right, Like we should be beyond this. But we're having to go back to the first things again. And so I think, man, what a beautiful word that, as Christian leaders, number one, we need to recognize in ourselves that there might be some elements that well, yeah, for right now this is where I need to be and later there's somewhere else. And then the value of relationships where that discipleship can take place. I mean any kind of. Does that make sense? I mean, bounce off me, tell me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 3:And that's you know, the Christian walk is so dynamic, it's so like it's not uninteresting. Right, as you are working these things out, if you're really pursuing what God's trying to do in your life, if you're looking for him, if you have an expectation of his movement in your life, you're going to see these things. You're going to see and maybe at the same time, maybe you're this has been me so many times where my schemes and my strategies and all of my effort that I was trying to progress was against a wall that he was telling me to abide inside of. And in realizing that, an area that I wasn't working and strategizing and giving critical thought to was where he wanted progress made, and so my energies were just totally in the wrong direction. And realizing that, navigating that, reallocating that in the right place in the area that he's leading you, just so refreshing when you finally come to the end of all of that work against a goal that wasn't moving, where you really needed to leave that with him and just abide.
Speaker 2:That's so good. So all right, here's kind of my thought, you know, closing question and thought for us to kind of wrestle down here. So if we want to be those kinds of leaders, we want to be Christian leaders of faith that are bringing balance to those things, seeking that kind of mentorship et cetera. You know, I think a lot of times in our church culture maybe not all church cultures it's not really conducive to correction, it's not really conducive to kind of being nudged back toward or directly put back toward a right behavior or action. How do you think we could intentionally invite those kinds of relationships and conversations into our own faith walk? How do we invite those and what are some of the you know, maybe pitfalls or worries along the way?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you know you and I have discussed that in the corporate world. In the secular world it's a lot more acceptable. The feedback, the correction, the performance reviews, they are literally a part of life it's defined in the relationship.
Speaker 3:That's right, that's right. So, you know, I think it's got to start and I've been through all sorts of trainings on this right, just from a secular standpoint. But I think it's got to start with asking for the feedback first. You know, if you're in as an elder, as a pastor, as a church leader, if you're seeking the feedback and you create an expectation and an environment of feedback, right, it's very normal for me to have you give me critique on the sermon, on the music, on the whatever. Then, um, once you're in that pattern, once you've shown that you're receiving it, that you're acting on it, that you're not creating a contentious uh you know relationship out of it, um, you know, I think, I think god will allow for the scenario where you say you know you've been doing a great job keeping me aware of some areas for growth. Would you be comfortable if I were to give you a few?
Speaker 3:You know, can we open it Can we make this a two-way street Reciprocate, right, and I think it's just. You know, you talk about corporate culture, where there's your individual church culture, your group's culture and if it is a culture of feedback and of mutual growth and of accountability. I think you can kind of borrow from that secular training and implement that culture and have that be a part of your church.
Speaker 2:Man. I think there's such good wisdom there, because I once heard it said this way. They said critique without invitation is criticism and that's how it's going to be received. And I think the best way we can open the opportunity you're right for that invitation to be extended right, especially as a Christian leader in a congregation or something like that. Right, if we're sitting here thinking and this is the case for a lot of leaders right, they're not thinking about what they need for themselves, they're going. I got a list of five people that I know I need to sit with, right, so you know, then I need invitations from those people. So how do I earn the right to that invitation? A saying in our church that we say over and over and over again is deep discipleship happens in the context of deep relationship.
Speaker 2:And so if I'm going to, if I'm going to have that, I've got to have that relationship with you, and that's going to be investments of time. It's going to be investments of saying, hey, I'm going to ask you to give me feedback, Yep, right, and I'm going to receive that and I'm going to, I'm going to acknowledge that, I'm going to look at that, I'm going to make changes based on the valuable feedback you give me, and the result of that will be credibility to say, hey, can I have some with you too? Can we two-way this conversation here?
Speaker 3:And I think that that provides a great foundation for that meaningful growth and such to take place, and I don't know if they said this, but what I'm hearing is that maybe you even approach it before you have the feedback to give right. Maybe you say would you be open If I ever saw anything? Go ahead and lay that expectation, that groundwork? You know, I would love to speak into your life like you've been speaking into mine, and if I ever saw anything, or if I ever sensed anything, or if God ever shared anything through Scripture, I would just love to just you know, in relationship, be able to bring that to you and grow together.
Speaker 2:Man, I think that's such a beautiful invitation because, again, I don't know many people who are doing that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, if you wait until you have it. It's almost bound to be a critique. It's almost bound to be criticism.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, and then it seems like I'm just kind of banking things up right, whereas, yeah, it's saying, hey, I'm going to define some expectations in this relationship, and one of them as a brother in Christ, uh, one of them as a as a sister in Christ. Uh, this is it right? This I expect you to help me follow Jesus more closely, more intentionally, uh, more authentically. Uh, I expect you to help me walk and navigate that balance and to to, to be a check on on the way that I'm pursuing that. Man, what a gift that God is that he would give us the church, the body that we don't have to walk this journey alone. Man, no doubt.
Speaker 3:Dude, I love that so much.
Speaker 2:Well, jason. Thanks for having this other conversation, man, it's just as we were talking, that question just kind of lingered in the back of my head and I appreciate you helping to navigate that alongside me. Man it's so helpful.
Speaker 2:It's exactly what I needed today. So thank you, amen, brother, amen, listen leaders, thank you so much for being a part of this conversation. We love having leadership conversations that help us to grow in our faith, that help us to lead, equip, mobilize, strengthen the body of Christ. Listen, our God is so good, he is so gracious, he is worthy of praise from every language, tribe, nation, tongue, and the only way we're going to see those 3 billion people who have never heard the name of Jesus is to get the whole 2 billion people of the church engaged in the good work that he's called us to. So, no matter where you are in a business, in a market, in your home, in your school, at your church, in a mission field Be about the work and will of God so that every person on the face of this earth can be equipped to spread the gospel and we'll see the kingdom come and is well done. Thank you for joining us today.