ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Explore the transformative journey that is leadership. In each episode, we will dive deep into strategies, stories, insights, and the core values that shape and inspire effective Christian leaders who make an impact - all around the globe. Get ready to unlock your leadership potential.
When leaders are equipped, kingdom impact multiplies. Equipping leaders and spreading the Gospel. Let’s change history together!
This podcast is brought to you by the International Leadership Institute.
ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Ep 47 | Character Over Charisma: The Leadership Crisis We Can’t Ignore
We’re in a leadership crisis—and the stats don’t lie. But what kind of leaders is God actually looking for? In this episode, we break down the four big C’s: Character, Competence, Credentials, and Charisma—and why one of these matters way more than the rest.
Leadership is facing a crisis. With 70% of leaders failing to finish well, we need to examine what true Christian leadership looks like in a world that often values the wrong qualities. This thoughtful conversation explores why character must take precedence over charisma, competence, and credentials in leadership development.
What happens when leaders with magnetic personalities lack the character to match? We examine how charisma without integrity can build impressive followings but ultimately hurt people through selfish ambition. The most dangerous leaders are often those who isolate themselves, like the lone buffalo separated from its herd—more likely to attack than retreat when threatened.
Too often, we elevate leaders based on their charisma and credentials, but without character, things fall apart fast. Discover why integrity behind the scenes matters more than a stage presence and how we can step up as leaders in our homes, workplaces, and communities.
Everyone carries influence somewhere; our responsibility is to steward that influence with Christ-like character.
When you begin ILI training, you will discover how the Eight Core Values will lead to the Seven Outcomes in your life and the lives of those you lead. Join a community of leaders who are ready to change history and make an impact in this world. Discover more at ILITeam.org/connect.
Welcome to the History Makers Leadership Podcast, where we explore the transformative journey that is leadership. Each episode, we will dive deep into strategies, stories, insights and the core values that shape and inspire effective Christian leaders who make an impact all around the globe. This podcast is brought to you by the International Leadership Institute. Now get ready to unlock your leadership potential and let's change history together.
Speaker 2:Hey guys, welcome back to the conversation we're having on the leadership crisis that we're seeing statistically. Today we're going to unpack what is Jesus, what is God looking for? Character, competence, credentials, charisma. Join us as we unpack some of these topics and discuss further how we can be better leaders in our society today. This article says character before charisma, competence and credentials, and it's that character that God sees, he sees the heart.
Speaker 2:And credentials, and it's that character that God sees, he sees the heart he sees some of the things that no one else had seen, that integrity that was happening in the fields when he was killing lions and bears with his bare hands because they were coming after the flock that he was entrusted to protect. And in this article he says character before charisma. Charisma can build a following, but without character people can get hurt by leaders pursuing their own selfish ambition. Character before competence. Leaders should seek to grow across multiple areas of competence.
Speaker 2:However, competence without character can lead to pride the most destructive influence upon a leader, which you were just speaking to um, if we don't have checks and balances, if we don't have that internal, you know, dialogue with Christ and just.
Speaker 3:Well, and there's so much temptation you know, there's so much temptation with leaders of charisma, because they can, they can get a following right, they have an outside degree of influence to have them begin doing that when they're just not ready, when they've just not been equipped, and it's it's, it's honestly, I think it's dangerous, um, because it it uses that person and their God-given gifting for not not for them, right, um, but but in service to something else. And uh, you know, I don't see that in the model of Christ. Christ, you know, yeah, god uses people Absolutely and he's doing something in them at the same time. Right, and so when we fail to recognize leaders with character, or, excuse me, when we fail to recognize leaders with charisma or leaders with unique competence, and we, we don't disciple them in those other pieces, right, and by disciple I mean I shouldn't use that word we don't educate, we don't mentor, we don't coach them in those other pieces, right, we end up using those giftings for our own gain, right, particularly as we lead leaders.
Speaker 3:That can be a real, real danger. And so there is, there's that temptation because it becomes effective, right, it definitely shows short-term gain, but we have got to, we've got to pursue in ourselves the character necessary to say no, the integrity necessary to say no. I'm not going to use people for kingdom. I'm going to walk alongside with people.
Speaker 3:I'm going to um partner with people for the kingdom and not use them or their giftings for, for this ministry or or thing that I that I've got in front of me, um, and, and I do think that's again uh, I think that's one of the real unique ways that God has blessed us as an organization is because we have a values-based leadership model, a biblically-based, values-based leadership model.
Speaker 3:The consequence is number to uh, uh, live out some, some God-given charisma, but it's really focused on that character development piece to say, okay, no, are you practicing a passion for the harvest? Are you living out um, uh, a faithful stewardship or integrity, um, with the kind of uh, christ, christlike character and consistency, that that, this level of leadership, this level of influence that you've been given, that it calls for Uh, and then how do you scale that as God continues to uh give or take right, Uh, influence and leadership from you? Um, and how does that not become the, the, the location of your identity, right, we don't become the. You know my identity as bishop or pastor or whatever or CEO or president.
Speaker 3:How do we protect and guard our hearts? By remaining no. No, I remain a child of the one true king Like that maintains my identity and I think that protects us a little bit on the two other fronts of charisma and competency, by maintaining that sense of character and identity rooted firmly in him.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And the third point here that I don't want to skip over I saved it for last was character before credentials. He says qualifications and titles can establish credibility but they remain secondary to Christ-like character when leaders depend on God, not their credentials. And I feel like, as leaders in the ministry workforce, churches, that character before credentials really protects us from narcissism and some of those toxic, because our credentials at times get us in the door but our character is what's going to remain long term in those ministry settings. And to finish that thought, he finishes this whole section with a quote says Integrity will transform our ministries, our societies and accelerate the gospel among the nations.
Speaker 2:And one of the sessions we have at ILI is the integrity session and we share that statistic from the 70s research that says 70 percent of leaders do not finish well. And one thing for people watching to consider is if you're sitting in a room with 10 people, seven of them they won't. They won't finish well with integrity. And I think it's so vital for us to have that long lasting steadfastness to our character and being with Christ and living as he would live.
Speaker 3:You know, as God has blessed me with the ability to step into this leadership role, I have only found a desire for having had a longer life, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 3:I recognize the unbelievable personal value that it brings to to have lived a life of faithfulness for 40 years 50 years 60 years, 70 years, Um, and and I think that's one thing that that again has led to the statistics you started us with. The next generation is looking going. I don't see enough leaders of integrity. I see so many leadership failures, and the thing about integrity is it's really demonstrated over time, Like there's an element of you know in the formula of how do I calculate integrity? Time is one of them, and guess what? We just don't control that Right. It is not ours to hold, and so the consequence of that is we just need so much more demonstrated faithfulness and integrity over such a long period of time for people to genuinely trust.
Speaker 3:I mean think about how many people were lauded and celebrated as the number one leaders in the 10 years ago and what ha, what's happened to them? Right, Some of them are great spots, Some of them aren't. Uh, there've been some successes and some failures, Um, and, and you know, I I keep in my inbox, um, every week and uh, you know a Christian newspaper that just kind of posts some headlines and I look and I go, okay, God, I'm seeing, uh, I'm seeing the stories of those 70% that just aren't finishing well, um and and again, that undermines, that undermines the, the, the confidence of the next generation in, uh, the leadership of of the now and the soon.
Speaker 3:And so we do. We have to speak into those moments and we have to recognize that, um, as dire as all that sounds right, all that's really negative. And so I want, I want the people, I want us and I want the people listening to, to recognize wait a second. God has given us a solution, um, and it is, it's Christ himself, it's, it's, it's the hope of, of, um, the hope of of how he causes transformation. And so here's the good news when people live lives of genuine integrity in their leadership, the consequence of that is a gospel accelerating movement. Right, that's the good news. Absolutely.
Speaker 3:That it is so uncommon. It is so unique in context that when people encounter it, when they see it, they are moved because it is so counter-cultural, no matter the culture. There's a really interesting book by Randy Alcorn. He's written many, many things, but Randy wrote this book and in it a person is arrested. It's a fictional book. They're arrested for their faith and then they experience physical persecution for their faith, and again fictional book, but the story could be real.
Speaker 3:So in Randy's book, the guards are so moved by the sincerity of this person's faith that they even stop beating him Because they go. Man, you just like you're holding on to this, like, look, I get it, you're different.
Speaker 3:You know a similar book, you just like you're holding on to this, like, look, I get it, you're different. You know a similar book, heavenly man, brother Yoon. He shared about how he was being physically assaulted by his prison guards and they eventually stopped because they just recognized you know what? I don't really get what you believe. You know what I don't really get what you believe, but you believe it with some real sincerity that you know what. We're just going to step away a little bit, we're going to back off a little bit, and so all of that to say the great news is, when we do that man, god does some incredible things.
Speaker 3:He begins to open people's eyes to things that are worth living for and things that are worth dying for. He begins to open up doors of opportunity for the transformational work of the kingdom to be borne out in people's lives. Right, that's why you have these orphanages that are able to open and close countries, because you know what, hey, you're doing something in these kids, like they're coming back different. Yeah, keep going Like, keep keep pursuing them. You know, I have a friend of ours in Central Asia who talked about. He's got a master's in economics and he does a lot of research in that space. He's an ardent believer to increase the economic output of their nation by evaluating the Protestant work ethic and its transformational impact. Moving countries from third and second world economic status into first world economic status. The consequence of men and women who work not for man but for God a strictly biblical concept. The transformational work of that, bringing, bringing that to bear on a nation and on an economy.
Speaker 3:That's truly incredible All of that, yeah, all of that is that gospel accelerating momentum of leaders living lives of integrity and God being glorified in the midst of it. So I think there's great reason to hope.
Speaker 3:You know, obviously at ILI, we invest in equipping leaders for that for now and for the future, with a biblical framework for leadership, and so we're able to walk alongside those leaders. A number of years ago, a huge global gathering of believers got together and they made some commitments together and they produced a document. It's called the Cape Town Commitment and in it they talk about the fundamental, essential need for whole person, christ-like, character-driven leadership development. And so I think this author, these statistics are all pointing back to this ongoing clarion call for the harvest field to be full of workers, the leaders must be equipped, they must be equipped, and that equipping looks like an equipping of character an equipping of Christ-like modeling and one that, by God's grace, brings incredible transformation across nations, communities and peoples.
Speaker 3:And so I'm excited for what God is doing now and into the future and the leaders that I see him raising up, because he is raising up a next generation of leaders, and he's helping people to see experience and celebrate that for his glory, so I'm excited for the future, shannon.
Speaker 2:I am too, and I think about a specific moment, even for me this year, where one of our leaders traveled with me somewhere and I noticed, when I was at this event with this leader, that it was this person's character and integrity throughout the length of their life that opened some doors for us. It was that trust and his integrity and leadership and life Truly it was that level of trust. But that is a trustworthy person because I've seen their lifestyle, I've seen the integrity they've chosen to live with and when we talk about that it really goes into. Let me make sure I'm in the right place. There are next topic Okay.
Speaker 2:And that is perseverance over platform. And he quotes Francis Chan in a message and as I was reading through this I was like, oh wow, I watched that message and Francis Chan says that whenever he steps on a stage, it's like drinking a little bit of poison the adulation of fans can be toxic, addictive and dangerous and it is really important for us to protect ourselves from that. And he says here in the article Christ-centered leaders should not focus on popularity and worldly acclaim, but on faithfully persevering through all seasons of life. Jesus modeled this faithfulness in the Garden of Gethsemane when he asked God to remove the burden of the cross but still had faith to say not my will but yours be done. That is such a hard but beautiful life to live right there.
Speaker 3:I think. I think we have to remember, you know, jesus's death. He went from having the crowds praise him coming into the city to being alone on a cross. I don't think that a worldly view of successful leadership would look at that immediate result and say that he was hugely successful in forming a ministry.
Speaker 2:And even with people who misinterpreted the word, thinking that he was coming to save the city. And here he is he's coming to die.
Speaker 3:That's right. I am constantly encouraged by the knowledge that the effectiveness and the output that God intended in the life of Christ was produced during his life and after his life.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I think that's the testimony of so many believers is that God is producing not just in them, but post their life right. He's working out, after they're gone, even more impact, transformation and work, and so I'm encouraged by that, because that reminds me that, even if I don't see the fruit that God promises he'll bear in the abiding, he will still produce the fruit that comes from the abiding, and so, abiding, he will still produce the fruit that comes from the abiding. And so, um, you know, yeah, there there are, there are real temptations, uh, that that come with being a leader. Um, you know, we, we seek, you know, as, as human beings.
Speaker 3:God has put in us a desire for the transcendent, and namely that that's in himself right Like he is the right object for that desire to be expressed. But the interesting thing is that we look at those stage moments, those big audience moments, and we know that they're transcendent. That's why people go to massive concerts and all those kinds of things. There's a sense of transcendence that comes from the massive audience, but we don't always recognize the dangers that that can bring to a church, to a body, to a believer, and we really have to guard and watch that so that we can protect our own hearts from the temptations that come from that. And so it's a real temptation, a real thing to watch for as a Christian leader so that our hearts are rightly guarded from the damaging effects that influence, leadership and audience can produce.
Speaker 2:I agree, and I think he could have even added to that success, because the more successful we become, the more valuable our voice, the more rooms we're able to go in decisions we're a part of because we've been successful. Therefore, we're going to continue being successful. And that leads to the next point here interdependence, not independence. And a lot of times as we experience success, we experience the large followings and stage time we could find ourselves in a place where we think what we are doing is the correct thing and not lean into others, and he shares here. This is a illustration he says during a safari through a game park just outside Nairobi, my Kenyan friends spotted a solitary buffalo. They warned me that the lone buffalo is very dangerous. I read later that lone buffaloes are more likely to attack hunters than retreat, as they lack the safety and numbers of the herd. The solitary leader who stands alone fighting for their cause is a myth. In reality, a lone leader is a dangerous leader. Independence is not a virtue to covet.
Speaker 3:I mean, there is so much, I think, wisdom in that and, you know, I think we see that in that natural world and that example of that one buffalo. But let's just look at the scriptures. None of the people who followed Jesus, none of the apostles, did those things alone. In fact, you read when Paul says he's been abandoned by everyone. You read the heartache of that loneliness that Demas has left me. It's just like I've been left here and that that is a wrong of that leadership crisis. We have a, I think, a leadership mentality that's been infused by the world that says you're the man, you're the woman, like it's you, you're the one that's made this happen. And the consequence of that is a real warped sense of ownership of the outcomes. Real warped sense of ownership of the outcomes. That is, I just don't again. It's a real tension. God invites us into the thing right. He invites us into the kingdom producing work and that is good. And yet he produces all the fruit right.
Speaker 3:It's this tension that the church holds and has to hold. But when we begin to think, I got here on my own, I'm staying here on my own, I'm producing this on my own, we put ourselves in a really dangerous position. Because here's the other thing I know, you know what? When the animal is isolated, that's when the predators are more likely to be able to pounce. Right.
Speaker 3:And I think, as leaders, we have to guard our own hearts from that, that sense of isolationism. And my observation is we actually have to invest double in getting people to tell us the truth and getting people who will speak truth to power, will be honest, will, um, you know, say the awkward thing, that thing that everybody has thought but you're just not aware of. You have to seek that out with a real vengeance. Vengeance is probably the wrong word emotionally Tenacity, tenacity, thank you. Yeah, a real tenacity, because the tendency of people is just not to do that or to presume that someone else has.
Speaker 3:You know one of my favorite things when you're teaching someone about an emergency situation, you know somebody starts choking. You identify the person who's going to call the emergency phone number. You don't just say, hey, somebody call and get an ambulance. No one will do it. Everyone will presume that someone else will. You point at a specific person. You say you call the ambulance Because then everyone knows you're accountable, you have to do it and if this doesn't happen, it's on you. We have to seek that same kind of accountability by constantly reminding people.
Speaker 3:You know you have the authority and the responsibility to tell me when I don't know this thing, when I have become blind to this thing, um, and and surround ourselves with that, so that we don't find ourselves, um, in that, in that dangerous place of of being alone and beginning to believe, um, you know that, that, that we got here on our own, um, and you know, gosh, even the world knows this right, like they have phrases like don't read your own news, and and you know all that kind of stuff. It's all in a worldly expression of, hey, you've got to surround yourself with some people.
Speaker 2:You know, as you're saying that you're saying something in a different way that he says, because one of the things he says is part of leadership is knowing when to follow. You have to know when to get out of the way, he says. We must intentionally foster a willingness to forego a position of leadership to follow someone better suited in leading in a particular situation. Christian leadership shouldn't be about hierarchy or titles. It's about having a humble heart. Paul simply writes Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. And you know, you can foresee because we've read the statistics. You can see things you may be blind to and in those moments you have to submit and humbly follow someone who's saying you're blind to this, whether you agree or not, because you've given them that authority to speak that and if, even if you can't see it that, that humility just to submit and to follow that person's wisdom to submit and to follow that person's wisdom.
Speaker 3:You know, shana, one of my favorite series of questions to ask a leader, if they give me the permission, is to say hey, do you think you ever make wrong choices?
Speaker 3:And they'll say well, yeah, I mean most leaders aren't so arrogant as to say outright of course you know, and so I'll ask them okay, when's the last time you said no to yourself and yes to someone else's decision? When's the last time you apologized to someone else? If you don't say recently, then the reality is, you probably haven't even recognized where you've been wrong or where you've made a wrong decision. Right.
Speaker 3:And that's a problem. If you know you're making wrong choices and yet you never apologize and you never allow someone else to make a different choice than you would have made, then really you're just missing it altogether. And so it's a good little self-test, right. It's really good. I have every month on my calendar hey, have you apologized to the people you need to apologize this month? Have you even paused to reflect on who could I have? Where could I have stepped out of line here so that we can try and address some of those things and seek the Lord and the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit will make us known to that.
Speaker 3:It's really just whether or not we want to listen to it. I think that's the bigger reality. But it's so good and again, I just look at, that's how the apostles dealt with it. You know how. That's how the apostles dealt with it.
Speaker 3:You know um, and where there was total unity, you know and picking who was going to replace judah, saying, hey guys, we're one of mine, one accord, we cast lots right, we just, we just. Okay, god, what have you got? But um, I think about, I think about that for ili, constantly. Right, we have these global leaders all around the world with so much experience, knowledge, wisdom, cultural understanding, relevance. I need to lean on them, and there are going to be certain times where I go, hey, you know, what do you think? And they're going to give an answer and I go, okay, well, that seems to me to be the better way to go. Or I might have an opinion, but they inform me no, and so I've been working with them to make sure they know. I need you to say that. I need you to say no if I'm wrong, because we need that kind of relationship to be successful in our leadership long term.
Speaker 2:We do and for those people watching, you may think that Daniel read this because he keeps segwaying perfectly into the next topics, but he hasn't read this in a while and I was like don't read it. That way we can just ask and get your fresh opinion, but you just keep going right into the next thing. So I love that, actually, that it's happened that way. And something I love is how you set that reminder, because you will forget, because you are busy. And if we go back to the beginning, when we were discussing the statistics, the number one 40% of the statistic there of what they were seeing in leaders was they were too busy.
Speaker 2:And as leaders we do get very busy and we can get very narrow minded and we're driving towards that vision and that goal and not take time to reflect and to pause and how you perfectly lined up this next one putting others above ourself. And that's the next one. This is actually the last one of this article. He says the greatest evangelist, louis Pallou, puts it this way the degree to which we serve is the degree to which we are great in God's eyes.
Speaker 2:Great leaders are servant leaders.
Speaker 3:No question, no question Again. Look at the life ministry calling of Jesus Christ. There's no better example. And of course I mean, yeah, of course he's the son of God. There's, of course, no better example. But that was the framing in which he operated, was serving people. And you know, yeah, I think we use again, particularly in the West, we use this idea of busyness as an excuse for bad behavior and not even recognizing that it's really a confession of sin, because God calls us to practice Sabbath, right, he calls us to actually have an intentional time where we rest in him. And so we've kind of begun to, I think, have this, this you know, this is a book title, but Addicted to Busy, right, this, this idea of hurry, is an expression of worth and, and you know, yeah everybody's busy.
Speaker 3:Okay, you know what? Your time's just as valuable as mine and my time's just as valuable as anybody else's. So it's really just an expression that says you know, I believe my things are more important than your things and so mine are justified. And I think we have to be ruthless in trying to minimize those kinds of distractions and those kinds of things, because it frees us up to serve. Right, and I get this like my mind is constantly trying to sit in and remain present in the moment so I can hear. God, why are you having me talk to this person Right Even now, like my mind's going through a bunch of different things? We've got a lot of things going on as an organization. I got a sick kid at home and all kinds of. You know I'm a human being too, and yet I'm going. Okay, God, what is it in this conversation? That's not just for the third chair that's joining us, but that's for you, that's for me. God, what are you about to pour out of my mouth?
Speaker 3:That's for me too, but I need to remember the whole practice, what we're preaching moment, exactly exactly, and so I think that there's a real, a real sense of calling and and reminder that that that servant leadership is is fundamental right. We teach um biblical leadership, we talk about servant leadership, transformational leadership and and um, you know, as we we talk through that servant piece. It's not again, it's not doormat right, being walked all over, uh, it's simply thinking of others more highly than yourself and saying okay, what do you need from me as your leader, I have the ability to break down walls or barriers.
Speaker 3:I have the, the, I have things at my disposal that you don't. So how can I use them to serve you Right? Uh, so that you can pursue, um, what God has placed in your hands to be responsible for, and and um, to steward. And so I think, again, there are temptations to not live in those spaces, but even the world is seeing the wisdom that that kind of leadership brings and you know, so many groups have started to gosh just in the past 50 years, started to recognize and live out that concept of servant leadership.
Speaker 3:And they reap the benefits that come from it, because doing it God's way, whether you believe in him or not, will produce better results. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Timeless truth it is.
Speaker 3:It is, and I think again, as the church has sought leadership tools, as the church has sought to address this leadership crisis, it unfortunately started. It wasn't always looking at God's word for some of those things.
Speaker 3:It kind of started looking in some other spots, and the beauty is that God's word does give us all that we need for life and faithful living, and that includes those of us that are all of us called to lead in some respect, but those of us who are all of us called to lead in some respect, but those of us who are called to lead and influence we have that framework of servant leadership that's essential for success.
Speaker 2:And you know you mentioned the thing about rest, which reminded me in our intimacy with God session. One of the struggles people have is the failure to prioritize, and in there we share how the never-ending to-do list and demands of our life often take precedence over that sacred time with God. Yet God is the one who provides the rest, and so placing Him first and striving towards that Christlike leadership that we desperately need and the world needs and we want, provides us the rest that we so desperately seek. We don't want the busyness to invade that space of sacred rest with.
Speaker 2:God. And lastly, to quote here, he says selfish ambition opposes Christlike leadership, and he summarizes the whole article with Christlike leaders should strive to be Jesus followers who seek to develop godly character, persevere despite worldly opposition, pursue interdependence with like-minded believers and advocate for the needs of others above their own. Such a great way just to summarize how we can live as characters of leader. And something you've said and I hope I don't butch the way you say it so you can say it the right way but you always talk about how we want to be great leaders and we have all these leadership, do this, do this, do this to be a great leader. But really, you've said so many times how living as Christ and living as characters of leader, that is leadership. That really is leadership.
Speaker 3:When we live as leaders of character. That is an expression of our followership of Jesus. And again, leadership is influence. So it's not so many people listen and think to themselves I'm not a leader, I'm not a leader. And the reality is, for many of you who are listening, you probably lead some people who feel that way, who think of themselves not as a leader. But the reality, shannon, is we all carry influence in the lives of someone else, and so when we say I'm not a leader, we excuse from ourselves the responsibility to steward that influence for kingdom purpose.
Speaker 2:And our behaviors, and our behaviors.
Speaker 3:We allow ourselves to be divorced from that process. But I think discipleship to Jesus, apprenticeship to Jesus, will result in leadership like Jesus, because that's where and how Jesus lived. And so, you know, I think that's exactly what he's calling us to. I think that's the new age in which we're beginning to live, where people recognize that, where they begin to, you know, cross that divide and go.
Speaker 3:No, no, this is a coherent, consistent way in which I live my life. It's not Sunday I'm one way and Monday I'm another. This is who I am. I am defined by my followership of Jesus. It's my identity, it's my action, it's my purpose and I'm going to live that out. And you know, I appreciate how that author closed it. We should be so unbelievably aware of how much God opposes the proud and recognize the unbelievable danger that rests in pride and arrogance and just run our hearts away from it because he opposes it and he stands in opposition in such a way that causes downfall. So if we want to pursue with excitement and joy and intentionality and vigor, we've got to do that, knowing that one way to guard ourselves like that's what we pursue.
Speaker 3:But we've got to guard ourselves from that temptation of pride, that temptation of self-adulation and self-praise that can come so easily in the process.
Speaker 2:You're right and oftentimes to hear that God opposes something. We may not be able to digest that in such a way of how could a loving God oppose his own creation? And I think it's great to just to express that and kind of go into that just a little and share that. It's so destructive, it's so counter everything that God stands for, that he stands in the way of allowing you to become overly prideful. It says pride comes before the fall. It is so adverse to who God is that he can't allow it to continue in your life out of a deep love for you, because he wants you to reflect him with grace and humility and compassion and kindness, the fruits of the spirit, and with pride. We can't right, and he knows that, and so he opposes it in such a way out of a deep love for humanity and the expression of his son to be fully seen and known in society as he truly is. And Christ wasn't prideful at all or he wouldn't have died for us.
Speaker 2:He would have had the angels come down. You know, like they were telling him if you are who you say you are, have the angels come down and release you from the cross. But he humbly served God and us and our best intentions by taking on that task.
Speaker 3:No question, you know. I think that we have to remember pride. The Westminster Confession says this the chief end of man, the purpose of man, the purpose of people, humanity, is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. Pride says I can enjoy myself, and if I can enjoy myself it's because I glory in myself, I find myself sufficient, which, literally, is that, you know, borne out to its logical conclusion is I am God right. Like it's, I am now idolatry unto myself.
Speaker 3:Right and why I think God opposes that with such vigor? Because he knows right. It's opposition because of love, right? If my kid is putting their hand on the stove that I'm using to cook, my immediate opposition to that action is not unloving. In fact, it's protection that they don't even realize they need. And in the same way, god is seeking to love, protect and guard us from the unbelievable damaging effects of pride in our life, in our leadership and our followership of Jesus.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for being here, Daniel, and having this conversation with me. I've enjoyed it and I hope that you've enjoyed it. For me personally, some of the nuggets is that, despite what the leadership crisis may look like, we have the ability to change that, and the change might not be witnessed in our lifetime, but that doesn't mean it won't change and we get to take that task. We get to live as leaders with integrity and influence those around us, the ministries we work for, the organizations, the businesses, the places that we can change. Let's change together by being followers, by being characters of integrity and leading well into the next generation.