ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Explore the transformative journey that is leadership. In each episode, we will dive deep into strategies, stories, insights, and the core values that shape and inspire effective Christian leaders who make an impact - all around the globe. Get ready to unlock your leadership potential.
When leaders are equipped, kingdom impact multiplies. Equipping leaders and spreading the Gospel. Let’s change history together!
This podcast is brought to you by the International Leadership Institute.
ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Ep 46 | Following First: Addressing Today's Leadership Crisis
Leadership is in crisis. At least, that's what 82% of young adults believe. This sobering statistic sits at the heart of a profound conversation between Daniel and Shannon about the global leadership crisis and its spiritual remedy. The truth today is that leadership is failing us. Across industries, communities, and even within faith-based organizations, we see a growing gap between effective leadership and the demands of the people being led. In this episode, we take a deep dive into some startling statistics that highlight the extent of this issue and explore the root causes behind the leadership deficit.
But there is hope. One of the most powerful and transformative models of leadership comes from Jesus Christ. Together, Daniel and Shannon discuss how embracing Christ-like leadership can offer a solution to this crisis. They break down what it means to lead with humility, service, and unwavering faith and how we can apply these principles in our personal lives, workplaces, and communities.
Drawing from Barna's research and insights from leadership experts, they unpack why trust in leaders has plummeted to historic lows. So, what are some of the culprits? Depersonalized leadership, broken relational connections, and a megaphone culture where everyone speaks, but few truly listen. Perhaps most telling is the revelation that 26% of young people believe "no one wants to be a follower anymore"—a sentiment that reveals our profound misunderstanding of leadership itself.
We’ll unpack practical steps to becoming a leader who not only inspires but also uplifts and empowers others. Whether you’re in a leadership role, aspiring to be a leader, or simply seeking to influence those around you positively, this episode will provide valuable insights on how to follow Christ’s example in leadership.
Ready to rethink what makes leadership truly effective? This episode might transform how you lead or, better yet —how you follow.
Resources:
- Barna Research Article (2019) – A research article from Barna Group discussing leadership and its challenges. https://www.barna.com/research/leadership-crisis/
- Book: "The Shepherd Leader" – A book about church leadership and leadership structures within churches. https://bit.ly/3Fgd9SN
- Article by Tim Tucker: "We Need New Leaders: Responding to the Cry of the 21st Century" – Discussing leadership development and the importance of leaders being followers first. https://bit.ly/43wY8WP
- Study on Peak Child (Year 2000) – A study discussing global demographic changes and leadership implications.
When you begin ILI training, you will discover how the Eight Core Values will lead to the Seven Outcomes in your life and the lives of those you lead. Join a community of leaders who are ready to change history and make an impact in this world. Discover more at ILITeam.org/connect.
Welcome to the History Makers Leadership Podcast, where we explore the transformative journey that is leadership. Each episode, we will dive deep into strategies, stories, insights and the core values that shape and inspire effective Christian leaders who make an impact all around the globe. This podcast is brought to you by the International Leadership Institute. Now get ready to unlock your leadership potential and let's change history together.
Speaker 2:Hey guys, we're excited to have you join in on the conversation that Daniel and I had about the leadership crisis that we see and some startling statistics that go along with that. One solution to this crisis is actually leading like Christ, and how do we do that? Through following him. Join us as we talk and unpack some of the statistics and how we can be better followers of Christ. Hey.
Speaker 3:Daniel hey Shannon.
Speaker 2:I'm excited to be talking with you today about something. I'm excited to hear what your thoughts are.
Speaker 3:I appreciate that. I love having great conversations and I know these articles that you've got in your hands here and I think it really speaks to just the day and age in which we've been called to live and lead and I'm deeply encouraged at the way that God is working through men and women around the world and the conversation we're going to have, because I think it will be an encouragement to everyone who listens.
Speaker 2:I agree.
Speaker 3:Thanks for sitting down and making this a reality.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm happy to. I feel like I'm one of the watchers, except for I'm sitting in the room asking the questions. Hopefully, a lot of people watching would have similar as me. And the first thing, I wanted to start our conversation with some statistics from a Barna research article that was done actually in 2019. But the title of the article and this will be linked at the bottom for you guys to follow along with us 82% of young adults say society is in a leadership crisis, and I'm kind of on the borderline of a millennial.
Speaker 2:So I remember some of the things that were said about millennials and the way that they were going to influence the, the workforce and the future of politics and society. And I don't know what's being said about the next generation, but I do know there have been some things said, because we're talking about 18 to 35 year olds and so. So this is past the millennial, this is the Gen Z folks, and it says, when we take time to listen an essential practice for connecting with this age group we hear a sense of unease about the future and uncertainty about the kind of leaders that could make a difference and some of the statistics that come with that 43% strongly agree 39% somewhat agree with this statement. Our society is facing a crisis of leadership because there are not enough good leaders right now.
Speaker 3:Man. It's a real humbling and, I kind of think, startling statistic. Shannon, you just shared that a super majority of people in the next generation are looking for leaders or looking at leaders and saying I just don't see it. I just don't see that that kind of hope, opportunity, resilience into the future. And, you know, I think some of that is really a reflection of a reflection of the leadership crisis that that they're seeing because they're stepping into it, but that the whole world is experiencing.
Speaker 3:Um you know, we we see the evidences of a leadership crisis in um all of the brokenness in institutions, um the broken institutional like distrust that exists. Right, people have the lowest levels of trust with institutions in modern history and recorded history. Really, they just don't believe you know the news, they don't believe the government officials, and this is a global phenomenon, a global problem, and so that leadership crisis is a result of, I think, brokenness in trust, broken relationships. You know you mentioned that they feel a desire to be heard to be listened to.
Speaker 3:I think that there's a little bit of that. That's in all of humanity. We all want to be connected, we all want to be heard, we all want to have an authentic sense of relationship. You know, I think in evangelism, for instance, one of the most important things we can do is just listen right. Just to actually hear out their story and where they are in that journey.
Speaker 3:But with this upcoming generation, I think it's particularly acute because they live in a megaphone context where everything is being blasted at them. They are the you know, the subject of advertising. They're the subject of so much talking. At that. They miss those opportunities for authentic listening, reshaping and forming of their own you know opinions, mindsets and beliefs, and that's where, you know, as we look at this crisis of leadership, we've got a real struggle of reestablishing trust, confidence, faith, belief in these institutions right. Well, that's only really going to be done via individuals, in those individual relationships.
Speaker 1:And so.
Speaker 3:I think it's incumbent upon each of us to look at the relationships that God has placed around us and begin to, you know, build out that trust, that consistency of character and integrity that fosters, you know, the opportunity for influence to take place right. If leadership is influence. Then we're saying how do we help the next generation believe that there are leaders that can influence the direction of a nation or a world in the right way?
Speaker 3:Well we got to demonstrate that in our lives, in leadership and you know, I think that's just as incumbent upon us as younger leaders but also incumbent upon you know, the generations that have come before us to elevate, to put into those roles and positions and opportunities for them to see experience and learn, you know, before they, before they really need it.
Speaker 3:You know, I think, of the leadership crisis. Some of that, I think, is because people haven't had the opportunity, right, you know, we've had some ice and snow and such in our part of the world here recently, and it's a part of the world where we don't get a whole lot of that on the regular.
Speaker 3:Um, and I'll never forget having the opportunity when I was, uh, when I was first learning to drive, to drive in that kind of a context, um, and how the blessing of that was, um, well, I had, I had some practice in it before I really needed it, right.
Speaker 3:I still, I still had insurance from my parents, you know there was still an opportunity for some good medical care, whatever, so that when I drove an ice later as an adult, I had already experienced it. It wasn't totally novel. And so and it gives you a lot of respect for the context of that difficulty when we allow younger leaders to step in and to see, they'll begin to understand better the difficulties of leadership, the unique stresses of leadership, and ultimately begin to see and trust more. Oh, this is why you're making those decisions. I now understand it a little better. That fosters more trust and that trust enables for greater influence and leadership.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Gives them a chance to see a different perspective and walk through some of those trials with guidance.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:That's great. A couple of the breakdowns of this statistic that will kind of segue into the article we're going to unpack. The question was asked what do you think are the biggest challenges to leadership in society today? 50% said everyone is too busy and distracted. 43% says everyone has to compete in the global marketplace. 41% society is becoming so fragmented. And then the last one really caught my attention was 26% of these young people believe that no one wants to be a follower anymore.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know again, each of those statistics I think are so informative and I would encourage you know, each of you listening, to really look over those numbers and think about your experiences with them. Shannon, one of the things that I think stands out to me is really that last thing you said, which was so many. What was that percentage? Don't? Don't think they want to. People want to follow 26% 26%.
Speaker 3:So a quarter of people just believe that people don't want to follow anymore, and I would say that that really that is connected to this, this megaphone culture of the of the West more broadly.
Speaker 3:I don't think that that's necessarily as true globally. I don't know who their research sample was and you know how global that was, but I think certainly the influence of the West is carrying across the next generation. But it does lead to a context where, if that is true, I think the best remedy is for people to experience what it's like to lead and then realize that they have so much learning to do, right, you know, I think about, you know, kind of stereotypical Western teenager who says, oh, I know this, I know that, you know, I could just figure all these things out Right. And there was a sign that one of my teachers had that said hey, while you still know everything, why don't you go ahead and go out and do it With the you know?
Speaker 3:The joke being, every adult will tell you yeah, we used to think we know a lot more than we knew, and now we realize what we didn't know Right. And so I think there's a degree of that where, hey, you know, in every generation there's some degree of I just don't know how many protections and provisions were made for me to get to where I am Right, and a little time and a little humility can provide, can provide for that. But you know, I think for a lot of those next generation leaders they're just yearning, they're really just yearning to see personally. And again it comes back to that relationship factor right.
Speaker 3:And as we look at the life of Jesus right, I mean we talk to explicitly Christians in this context where, hey, the life of Jesus was so highly relational he didn't just, you know, give precepts and principles to the disciples, he walked with them. That idea of follow me was like to catch the dust off of the rabbi's feet as they walked right. To be in that kind of proximity, to share meals, to fellowship, to encounter celebrations like the wedding and sorrow like the death of Lazarus, and to walk that journey alongside these followers with Jesus, I think that's an art of leadership that the modern context has missed. Here's my working hypothesis I believe we have sought to make leaders and leadership more efficient, which has depersonalized that relational aspect to such a degree that the next generation knows their leaders I mean really knows their leaders so much less.
Speaker 3:We don't even realize it, right, we don't even. We don't even recognize how much less we have a genuine relationship with the leaders in our lives. You know, I've been listening to a book called the Shepherd Leader and it's talking about you know church leadership and specifically, like you know, leadership structures within church and all those kinds of things. But you know it wasn't that long ago that there was a day where a pastor and there are still many that are probably listening to this where the pastor would do your wedding, do your funeral, do all the visits in between right, baptize you, baptize your children, like it was a lifelong walk in relationship. And in so many contexts now that's just not present. I mean you know five years, seven years maybe, that that particular pastoral leader in your life is present. You know in so many political realms you've got just constant turnover in leadership in those contexts. And so you know the upcoming generation, they know names, but they don't know people Right, they haven't had a meal at your table, they've not really walked life with you.
Speaker 3:They've never even had the opportunity to do that because you know if you're at a yeah, you know the average church in the States is 80, but 80 or 90 in the congregation. But even that's hard for one pastor or family to try and to walk alongside.
Speaker 3:So I say all of that to say I think some of the symptoms we're seeing are connected to right. They're seeing and sensing a deeper sense of that leadership crisis because they just are lacking all those relationships and I think the long-term ramifications of that will be that when they do, when that generation becomes the next generation of leaders, they will be less experienced, less understanding. They will have had less direct mentorship, discipleship and development and they'll end up being a less equipped generation of leaders because they simply haven't received the kind of relational mentoring, discipleship and the equipping necessary for their long-term success, whether that be in explicit ministry, calling, or whether that be in ministry via vocation, and I think that's a real tension that the modern church, the growing church, is having to rustle down.
Speaker 3:Another interesting thing to share I recently saw, you know, there was a famous phrase in the 1970s that the world has reached peak oil right. This idea of the global production of oil has maxed out. I saw a study that said in the year 2000,. We reached a peak child where the global rate of the next generation coming into the world has hit its peak. And so what is that long-term ramification?
Speaker 1:for next generation leadership. How do?
Speaker 3:you start leading when those kinds of things change. As a leader who's connected to some of that, yeah, okay, god, I need some wisdom from the leaders who have gone before me, some experience poured into me to help me navigate some of that, because otherwise we'll find ourselves ill-equipped for the day and age that God has placed us. Because there is, there's wisdom and experience in those generations that have gone before us and, whether that's relational or maybe they wrote a book or whatever, we need to find those things and begin to mobilize that so that that crisis can not only be averted but turn from crisis into triumph and the next generation of leaders can really be deployed for greater kingdom impact Absolutely, and there are so many things that you touched on that.
Speaker 2:The article that we're going to kind of unpack together also touches on, with some significant bullet points, and the article that we're referencing came from Tim Tucker. He wrote it for the Luzon organization, came from Tim Tucker, he wrote it for the LUSON organization, and the title of the article, which we'll have below for you, is we Need New Leaders Responding to the Cry of the 21st Century, and I would just like to say that the statistics we're talking about came from 2019. This was pre-COVID and I would be interested to see the same people surveyed again, because I think it's gotten worse in society that we're at now. And a couple of things in this article. We'll go through the bullet points, but the first thing that he talks about transitioning into becoming care leaders of character is followers first.
Speaker 2:And and I think it's interesting that those statistics talked about how nobody's followers anymore. And of course, in this article he says to be Christlike leaders. Our primary identity is not as leader but as follower. The greatest Christian leaders are the greatest followers. And he's talking about being followers of Christ and I think that's so interesting how he pinpointed that we've lost sight of that some. And last quote that I want to hear your thoughts on he says Our effectiveness as leaders will be directly proportional to being spirit-led followers of the master leader, jesus Christ.
Speaker 3:Well, there's no question, right, that is, I think, fundamentally true. You know, we are fruitful in the abiding right. Uh, to produce the fruit which God has called us to produce, um, we must abide. It's it's actually. That's why his yoke is easy and his burden is light, is because the one thing he's asked us to do is to abide in him, um, and he is a good shepherd, he is, uh, uh, you know, you know gentle and kind, and so that practice is so vital. I think, shannon, you know you talk about a follower. First, I would say I think the misnomer that has taken place is we have turned from this. You know, we have seen the problems and the need for leadership development as a global body, right, and there are people that are working on this, but we often place that as an aside to our followership of Jesus not as an extension of it.
Speaker 3:You know, of course, I lead the International Leadership Institute, so I have some deep thoughts on this. But I think the most compelling aspect of the material that God has blessed us with right, written by countless men and women around the world working together to establish not only these eight core values, but, you know, the curriculum and experience that we've given to. You know, some 400,000 alumni across 100 nations of the world. All of that to say it's all biblically based and it's an extension of our followership of Jesus.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Right. That, to me, is one of the most meaningful aspects of the leadership paradigm that we have is that it's an extension of that followership of Jesus, not an addition to it.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:I don't have John Maxwell over here and Jesus over here. This is all. How am I following Jesus over here? It's no, this is all. How am I following Jesus? And then in that, how does that?
Speaker 1:produce those kingdom things as.
Speaker 3:I'm called to lead and influence others in that process. So, and you know, practically, practically, we teach intimacy with God as one of the eight core values of the most effective Christian leaders, it's always taught first. It is, it is. It is taught first. And as we talk about intimacy with God, one of my favorite quotes is to ask a room of people do you know the president of your country? And, of course, you know they're all yeah, yeah, I know. I know, I know. Okay, what do they have for breakfast? Nobody knows, man.
Speaker 3:Nobody knows Because we know but we don't know. Right, in the same way, I think we have people who can have a head knowledge of Jesus. I think we have people who can have a head knowledge of Jesus but they don't have, you know, a genuine, ongoing, abiding relationship with him. They have a relationship with him but it's overly professionalized. Right. There are all of these, you know, kind of temptations that we walk down right. Intimacy, information over intimacy is one that I can often struggle with right, where I've got a whole lot of doctrinal understanding and belief in theology, but, you know, am I walking? Resolve was a symptom more than the root.
Speaker 3:And I think the root is really where God is sending this next generation is to say, hey, we've got to be effective followers of Jesus and out of that followership we'll find ourselves to be fruitful, faithful and productive toward the kingdom right.
Speaker 3:And that's going to include the sharing of the good news Jesus' death, burial, resurrection, the hope of the redemption, both now and in eternity, and it's also going to mean just the kingdom coming right. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, and the transformation that that brings to communities as believers step into their calling as followers of Christ Right. I think that's transformational.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I completely agree. And people who are nearing the end of their work you know space getting close to retirement, maybe not seeing what they thought would be the fulfillment of their dreams and such. All of us can at some point struggle with being a good leader or a well-known leader or someone who you know led a ministry, when really it's just we're that person who did something really awesome and we somewhat want some credit for, yeah, I did this awesome thing, and coming back to the article, he quotes Paul in First Corinthians, 11, one saying follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ, and he says Paul became arguably the greatest ever Christian leader because he was the greatest follower in Christian history.
Speaker 2:As Afrika Mohalefi concludes, an effective Christian leader is someone who publicly mimics the life of Jesus and I feel because I resonated with some of the statistics there and seen some of the similar things in 2019. Similar things in 2019. And so you know, we have lost sight at times of realizing that the most effective thing we can do is lead like Christ and live like Christ, and whether it comes with accolades and fame and certain results that you've looked for, that's a win. That is an effective leader. So I thought that was really intriguing.
Speaker 3:I I I can't, I can't agree with that more and again. It obviously, obviously, God is desiring for for all to come to faith, to a saving knowledge of the hope found in Jesus Christ alone. And, and you know, I celebrate and rejoice in all of those growth initiatives and things that that leaders are striving toward, the call to remember, or the call to watch out for the, the, the, the tiger, the lion that's crouching at the door.
Speaker 3:um is is to remember, hey, that that thing that you're trying to produce is not yours to produce, it's his to produce. He is the one that's producing it. And so yes, man, we pray for massive growth in our congregations.
Speaker 3:Uh, because people are coming to faith, because that brings you worship and glory and honor, and you are worthy and so majestic and deserve that. From every people, language, tribe, nation, tongue. That is absolutely the thing that we ought to be rejoicing in, and yet it is something that you produce. And so we cannot look at a life of faithfulness that lacked some measure of productivity according to our own worldly standard of productivity and go sorry, right, because just think of David.
Speaker 3:He was a scrawny one out in the field, he wasn't the one that, as they looked around and went, you know we should just go ahead. And they left him out there because they didn't think, oh, you know, he's not going to be the one that's anointed, it's somebody else. I got a lot of boys here, right, jesse's going. I got a lot of kids it's not that one, somebody's got to watch the sheep, um, but. But God was looking for something different. And so you know, I am increasingly convinced that the leaders I see finishing well, have one thing in common it's a lifetime of practiced faithfulness, so that when they get to those other moments in life, they're prepared for it. And you talked about retirement, and I think there are a lot of believers who, rightly, are recognizing I don't even think that's a Christian frame.
Speaker 3:But I heard a pastor say this. He said you know, I stopped being the senior pastor of a church. And you know, it was a couple of months later that somebody you know it was during COVID that they stopped being the senior pastor of the church, and during COVID they each had kind of like assigned seats and so you had to check in with someone to find your assigned seat. And so he walks into the church rather large church and the person checking them in didn't know who he was, and so he said the last name and she didn't know who he was, wow.
Speaker 3:and so she just said oh, here you go, gave him his seat number and and he recognized in that moment, in that moment oh, that hurt more than it should have. Right, like that stung more than it should have. And I think that is the natural conclusion of the tension that every Christian leader is going to face is there's some part of ourselves that we're constantly having to die to and our failure to die to it at certain moments and times it's going to be detrimental, it's going to be it's going to be dangerous.
Speaker 3:Um and again. All of this points back to that, that crisis, that crisis of leadership, because there are some who, who stopped dying to self. They stop it altogether, and the long-term ramification of that is organizations being led by narcissistic, self-serving leaders, and that is hugely damaging to the church and to the work that I think God is calling his people to do.
Speaker 3:And so as I listen to that. Yeah, followership first, because that's the only way we can effectively serve and lead. And that again back to paul, right, uh, for I'm crucified with christ nevertheless I live, but not I.
Speaker 3:It's christ who lives in me so that constant dying to self has to be, um uh, practiced with, with a maybe a greater degree of I don't know if the word is consistency or vigor but a greater degree of intentionality than maybe we even realize, because we live in such a self-promotion, self-adulating day, and so I think, man, that's such a good frame to keep in front of us as we seek to address that crisis.
Speaker 3:Hey, I hope this has been encouraging to you as we looked at not only this leadership crisis, but some of what we see and how we see and where we see God bringing transformation as people learn to lead in the same way that they follow Jesus and the transformational work that that brings. You know we've got a lot of great conversation coming up. I would love if you guys stick around. The next episode that's coming out is going to continue to look at what we've got coming about character, competency and charisma which of those are Christian leaders supposed to be pursuing with their life and leadership? Look forward to seeing you next time, you you you.
Speaker 2:Hey guys, welcome back to the conversation daniel and I are having about the leadership crisis we are seeing unfolding. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 3:I tried so hard. I tried so hard oh.
Speaker 2:Blooper oh I'm so sorry guys. It's all good. Our smiles are going to be big. You, you, you. Intro 2.4. Hey guys, welcome back to the conversation we're having on the leadership crisis that we're seeing statistically. Today we're going to unpack what is Jesus, what is God looking for Character, competence, credentials, charisma. Join us as we unpack some of these topics and discuss further how we can be better leaders in our society today. Character, competence, charisma, credentials. Join us as we discuss what God is looking for in leaders today.